Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

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Cainntear
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:07 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Cainntear wrote:You cannot learn a language from input only -- you must engage in output.


Of course. Who says you can learn a language form input alone? Sounds like a strawman. Every immersion system I am aware of includes output, usually delayed until the learner has fairly high comprehension.

But you talked about sitting in front of a TV and doing nothing else. Where is the output in your system?
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby TopDog_IK » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:20 pm

Cainntear wrote:But you talked about sitting in front of a TV and doing nothing else. Where is the output in your system?


Most immersion methodologies I am aware of recommend output once the learner has decent comprehension for everyday conversations and/or normal native TV shows. Dreaming in Spanish:

The teachers ask for the students’ opinions and experiences all the time, but the students are allowed to reply in English, and actually encouraged to not try to speak Thai until it comes out naturally (in their experience this starts happening naturally after around 800h of listening for western people learning Thai).
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby Cainntear » Fri Sep 30, 2022 5:41 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Cainntear wrote:But you talked about sitting in front of a TV and doing nothing else. Where is the output in your system?


Most immersion methodologies I am aware of recommend output once the learner has decent comprehension for everyday conversations and/or normal native TV shows. Dreaming in Spanish:

The teachers ask for the students’ opinions and experiences all the time, but the students are allowed to reply in English, and actually encouraged to not try to speak Thai until it comes out naturally (in their experience this starts happening naturally after around 800h of listening for western people learning Thai).

OK, but how is that going to work in your "sit-on-your-fat-ass" approach?
In the ALG classroom, the new spontaneous speech gets worked into class and the teacher is guided by it, but even if someone experienced emergent production after staring at the idiot box for 800 hours, what are they going to do with it?
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby TopDog_IK » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:00 pm

Cainntear wrote:OK, but how is that going to work in your "sit-on-your-fat-ass" approach?
In the ALG classroom, the new spontaneous speech gets worked into class and the teacher is guided by it, but even if someone experienced emergent production after staring at the idiot box for 800 hours, what are they going to do with it?


Most immersion learners I know start with iTalki teachers once they have decent comprehension for everyday speech.
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby Le Baron » Fri Sep 30, 2022 6:40 pm

TopDog_IK wrote:
Le Baron wrote:Yes, but what's missing here (and pretty much persistently with these 'I get input, then I gain comprehension, then I speak' views) is that output is a separate skill which isn't guaranteed by and provided for by comprehension of input. Physical formation of sounds and patterns and prosody and learning about how to use word choices and context etc in real time.


Who is claiming otherwise? Delaying output doesn't mean that people don't have to practice speaking. This seems like a total strawman argument.


Everything you've reacted to seems to be a 'strawman argument.' In any case it's not what I said. I said that even having had extensive input does not lead inexorably to output ability, because it is something that needs to be achieved and practised and developed.

Also the main thrust was about discovery through questioning and confirmation as opposed to just exposure.

A 'strawman' is when someone sets up only one thing in a particular position they believe they can knock down. That's what you did when you quoted me above.
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby s_allard » Sat Oct 01, 2022 12:02 am

Since I’m so late to the party, I will admit that I’ve had great difficulty wrapping my head around some of the arguments couched here in rather weighty prose. To me much of this arguing is rather futile; what counts is results. If a method works for you, then it is good and you should keep using it. If it doesn’t work for you, discard it and move on.

I have my own opinion about the specific difficulties of adults learning a language outside of an immersion setting and notably the problem of interference with the learner's native language. But I can’t be bothered arguing with Pablo, Steve Kaufman or anybody else about the whole thing ; I prefer to watch the excellent Dreaming Spanish or Easy German videos on Youtube.

Frankly, I don’t think I even have a specific method. I use a bunch of tools and techniques that I have cobbled together over the years. It’s a hodgepodge of some formal grammar study, some SRS with bits of paper and ANKI, lots of enjoyable input, extensive use of dictionaries and lots of interaction and correction with tutors. I’m totally happy with the results.

I’ve said it many times in this forum ; we are living in a golden age of foreign language learning where with just a few clicks we can hear and see content in countless languages. Plus we can actually speak to people in all these languages. The only thing lacking is the ability to be teleported to various countries for some real immersion.

I think if we spent less time arguing over methods and more time studying our target languages, in whatever manner that we like, we would make real progress.
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Re: Pablo from Dreaming Spanish: Language can’t be explained

Postby Spaceman » Sat Oct 01, 2022 1:14 pm

s_allard wrote:Since I’m so late to the party, I will admit that I’ve had great difficulty wrapping my head around some of the arguments couched here in rather weighty prose. To me much of this arguing is rather futile; what counts is results. If a method works for you, then it is good and you should keep using it. If it doesn’t work for you, discard it and move on.

I have my own opinion about the specific difficulties of adults learning a language outside of an immersion setting and notably the problem of interference with the learner's native language. But I can’t be bothered arguing with Pablo, Steve Kaufman or anybody else about the whole thing ; I prefer to watch the excellent Dreaming Spanish or Easy German videos on Youtube.

Frankly, I don’t think I even have a specific method. I use a bunch of tools and techniques that I have cobbled together over the years. It’s a hodgepodge of some formal grammar study, some SRS with bits of paper and ANKI, lots of enjoyable input, extensive use of dictionaries and lots of interaction and correction with tutors. I’m totally happy with the results.

I’ve said it many times in this forum ; we are living in a golden age of foreign language learning where with just a few clicks we can hear and see content in countless languages. Plus we can actually speak to people in all these languages. The only thing lacking is the ability to be teleported to various countries for some real immersion.

I think if we spent less time arguing over methods and more time studying our target languages, in whatever manner that we like, we would make real progress.


I think every poster but one in this thread is saying something very close to what you're saying. Unfortunately, Pablo from Dreaming Spanish, and ALG before him, would say that every one of your activities, other than input and crosstalk, are not only useless, but actually harmful to your learning progress. If you talk with a tutor before you can understand the language well, you'll have bad pronunciation. If you use Anki instead of input to learn vocabulary, you'll have a less intuitive and less accurate knowledge of words. Etc.

I personally think people should do whatever they want and whatever works for them. That's not what the topic of this thread is though. The topic of this thread is about someone who believes what you're doing is foolish and objectively wrong. Just like in politics and religion, it's hard to come in and say we should respect all beliefs when the discussion includes someone whose true belief is that everyone else is going to hell because they don't believe exactly what he does.
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