Can you "roll your rr's"?

General discussion about learning languages

Can you roll your RRRs?

I can roll my RRRs and I know Speedy Gonzales.
26
53%
I can roll my RRRs. Who is Speedy Gonzales?
10
20%
I cannot roll my RRRs but I know Speedy Gonzales.
8
16%
I cannot roll my RRRs. Who is Speedy Gonzales?
5
10%
 
Total votes: 49

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luke
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby luke » Mon Jan 17, 2022 2:19 pm

This is the text from FSI Basic Spanish on page 2.17 of volume 1 to help the student notice a detail about the pronunciation of the 'r':
Whenever / r / occurs at the very end of an utterance (not the end of a word, but the end just before pause), and especially when that final syllable is a stressed syllable, it has a different pronunciation from what is heard elsewhere. It is more like /rr/, but the vocal cords do not vibrate during it. The effect is almost like combining /r/ with /s/ except that the tongue -tip remains up at the end.
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby Kraut » Mon Jan 17, 2022 3:42 pm

luke wrote:This is the text from FSI Basic Spanish on page 2.17 of volume 1 to help the student notice a detail about the pronunciation of the 'r':
Whenever / r / occurs at the very end of an utterance (not the end of a word, but the end just before pause), and especially when that final syllable is a stressed syllable, it has a different pronunciation from what is heard elsewhere. It is more like /rr/, but the vocal cords do not vibrate during it. The effect is almost like combining /r/ with /s/ except that the tongue -tip remains up at the end.


This is "mejorar" and "aprender" in the Pons dictionary offering Mexican and Spain Spanisch. I can hear vibrated r in the Mexican voice but no vibration in Spain Spanish, the tongue just goes to the point of articulation and withdraws it without any vibration or rolling.

https://de.pons.com/%C3%BCbersetzung/sp ... ch/mejorar

https://de.pons.com/%C3%BCbersetzung/sp ... h/aprender
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luke
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby luke » Mon Jan 17, 2022 4:03 pm

Kraut wrote:
luke wrote:This is the text from FSI Basic Spanish

This is "mejorar" and "aprender" in the Pons dictionary offering Mexican and Spain Spanisch. I can hear vibrated r in the Mexican voice but no vibration in Spain Spanish, the tongue just goes to the point of articulation and withdraws it without any vibration or rolling.

Thank you. That's a very good point.

FSI Basic Spanish is quite focused on Latin American Spanish. They don't even introduce vosotros until the tail end of the course.
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Mon Jan 17, 2022 6:11 pm

Kraut wrote:This is "mejorar" and "aprender" in the Pons dictionary offering Mexican and Spain Spanisch. I can hear vibrated r in the Mexican voice but no vibration in Spain Spanish, the tongue just goes to the point of articulation and withdraws it without any vibration or rolling.

https://de.pons.com/%C3%BCbersetzung/sp ... ch/mejorar

https://de.pons.com/%C3%BCbersetzung/sp ... h/aprender
My ears hear the same sound or lack of sound as you, Kraut.
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby Kraut » Mon Jan 17, 2022 9:22 pm

Ha, I've found an interview with David Allen Martin II

Traductor de Alemán me explica su propio método - Entrevista

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6dbHs6-29I

It turns out that in his studies to become interpreter and translator he specialised in pronunciation/phonetics and exaggerating sounds that are difficult to articulate is his major recommendation for the foreign learner, he mentions his Spanish r-sound as an example.

from minute 38
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby luke » Mon Jan 17, 2022 10:17 pm

Kraut wrote:Traductor de Alemán me explica su propio método - Entrevista

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x6dbHs6-29I

It turns out that in his studies to become interpreter and translator he specialised in pronunciation/phonetics and exaggerating sounds that are difficult to articulate is his major recommendation for the foreign learner, he mentions his Spanish r-sound as an example.

from minute 38

I like that tip. It's not always easy having good pronunciation, but with exaggeration, one can slow down and emphasize sounds.
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby jmar257 » Mon Jan 17, 2022 11:48 pm

Xenops wrote:Slightly hijacking the thread, but--how does one learn how to trill R's, like in Spanish/Finnish? I'm only okay/so-so with my French pronunciation because I had a tutor, and I wonder if that's the only way to get the trilled R's as well.

I learned to do it years ago by watching some youtube videos and reading explanations and I'd do it over and over when walking to class in college (assuming I was alone, and it wouldn't be loud enough for anyone to hear). Same I did for the French R, actually. I still have the occasional trouble with a rolled R in the middle of speech where I just tap it, but that's been ameliorated a bit by overemphasizing it when practicing (so when you lazily do it when speaking, you're doing a lazy version of the overemphasized version, thus hitting somewhere near correct). I was actually just in Mexico (going to do a write up on my log!) and I actually tend to mess up the rr sound at the beginning of words more than the middle.

tl;dr practice, practice, practice, and overemphasize it when, for example, reading aloud from a book
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby garyb » Thu Jan 20, 2022 1:35 pm

There needs to be a "sometimes" option :lol:

I'm from Scotland, but not a part of Scotland where rolled Rs are common, so had to learn the hard way for Italian or Spanish and it's by far the most difficult sound I've encountered in any language I've studied - especially compared to French Rs which are a breeze and the only thing to watch out for is overdoing the sound. I've been practising rolling Rs regularly for about a decade now and I can mostly do it, but it still feels and sounds a bit weak and forced compared to a native speaker's and I can't keep it going for long, although it comes a bit more easily after a "launch-pad" consonant like D or T. And I occasionally just miss it entirely, especially if I'm trying to speak too fast.
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Re: Can you "roll your rr's"?

Postby Iversen » Thu Jan 20, 2022 5:40 pm

I don't remember ever having had a problem with any of the kinds of 'r' that have been discussed in this thread (barring those that are used in languages I don't know). But maybe a little bit of confusion caused by the weird Swedish 'r' that is producing by curling up your tongue and pointing it backwards while at the same time pretending to pronounce single dental trill.

In Danish we have partly solved the problem by killing half our r's. In principle we should be using an uvular 'r' with just a little bit or no flap at all, and that's what we do in initial position and after a consonant, but after a vowel we'll just prolong and open the vowel and (mostly) make the result into a diphtong (that's why "mor" = mother is sometimes jokingly spelled "moar", cfr English /mo-aw/) - and then we don't need to pronounce the 'r' itself.

Problem solved - how difficult can it be?
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