luke wrote:s_allard wrote:luke wrote:s_allard wrote:The simple reason is that a word in itself has little value.
But we have to start somewhere.
It’s true we have to start somewhere. The problem is that
we tend to get trapped in the idea that a language is a collection of words and
that learning a language is tantamount to memorizing a bunch of words. So if we learn x number of words a day with y repetitions in an SRS app, we can count the number of months to learn the 6000 most common words and become « fluent » in the target language.
It makes for interesting statistics but it does not work, it never has and never will. For a simple reason we all know so well : the word is not a unit of discourse.
Vocabulary is a byproduct of the learning process. In the end you will have acquired that 6000-word vocabulary that you coveted and
you will certainly have used dictionaries and even an SRS app along the way but you don’t start with just lists of words.
Sometimes I find myself focusing too much on a particular detail or event. It generally gets me off track. I highlighted a bit of what you wrote and I hope in so doing that I haven't "gone off track".
I disagree with the first part that bolded. Vocabulary is necessary ingredient. And you're not saying it's not. But the bolded part seems similar to the mother of the bride criticizing her daughter for wanting a good wedding cake. And then the mother saying in a huff, "you think a good marriage is all about wedding cake and as long as the wedding cake is good, the marriage will be successful, we'll, you're wrong". And I'm thinking the bride is not so delusional but does want a good cake.
On the second bit, it sounds like you're in complete agreement and perhaps haven't realized it yet. Using podcasts can help listening, implicit grammar, expanding vocabulary knowledge, increasing "time on task", etc. Then the question is, "how do I find an appropriate podcast"? Whether one is asking the question simply for themselves and would be accomplished with less effort by just trial and error, or one is using another one of their "other" intelligences to come up with a general (although incomplete) solution. Individual learners can look for "general solutions" whether they have realized they ultimately need a "personal solution" or not.
And general solutions
may be helpful to others (top down). And that doesn't discount the value of simply personalizing someone else's experience (bottom up).
An interesting response. I have to say that I didn’t really understand the paragraph containing the analogy with the bride and the wedding cake. Isn’t this is an excellent example of exactly what we are talking about? I think I know 100% of the words in the paragraph but I don’t comprehend or understand how it relates to what I said about this focus on learning a specific number of words. I’m not saying that there is anything wrong. I’m only saying that I don’t get it and probably because the words used are very different from the words I used in my post. I would even say that it’s a discourse problem.
As for the second part, I hope that my original post did not give the impression that I thought using graded podcasts was useless. This is certainly not my idea. Let’s say there were a system whereby podcasts were classified into six categories : A1-A2, B1-B2 and C1-C2, referring to the CEFR system. And these podcasts came with a transcript, a translation and even a metalinguistic commentary. That would be fabulous. I could easily choose material based on my current or target level.
Now the question is would this classification give the same results if we used only vocabulary size. Something along the lines of six vocabulary sizes : 1000, 2000, 3000, 4000, 5000 and 6000 words. I’m not sure about this.
In passing, it should be pointed out that the CEFR system does not make any reference to vocabulary size. Vocabulary is obviously very important but it is use and not numbers that count. If vocabulary size were the most important determinant of language proficiency, we could simply replace language tests with vocabulary tests.
I certainly think podcasts are an excellent source of native materials, especially when accurate transcripts are available. I would also point out that the video material available freely on Internet is also very useful and often comes with subtitles. Unfortunately, the automatically generated subtitles are usually of dubious quality.
To answer the question « What material (podcast or video) to choose ? » I think the answer is in two parts. First of all for many languages there exists on the internet a huge amount of material aimed specifically at learners.
Secondly, when you feel ready for so-called native materials, I think you could choose anything as long as the subject is somewhat compelling. Then you have to just slog it out with the language.
Since language is so repetitive, you will quickly pick up or notice the small number of key words that keep coming back. Then you have to add the subject-specific words. I loved to watch cooking shows in German and I now do so in Russian. It’s a great way to pick up food and cooking vocabulary.
Since I’m very interested in conversational language, I like to watch programs with interviews or lots of dialogues. Again there is a huge selection often with subtitles on youtube. What I find particularly interesting here is the use of everyday idiomatic language that I can attempt to use.
There is no lack of audio or video material for any topic or language genre under the sun. Finally, I would add that access to a tutor or some help is very important because many things will require clarifications or explanations.