Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

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Dragon27
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Dragon27 » Mon May 10, 2021 3:47 pm

golyplot wrote:I'm not sure that really counts as sports jargon, since the meaning is pretty transparent and not related to sports, at least in context.

Well, any sports idiom that went out of the sport circles and is used by the general population (many of whom don't know the first thing about the sports that originated these idioms, by they do understand the idioms themselves just through exposure in context) may be considered as not just a sports jargon anymore. Like any other idiom item the meaning of it could be clear (I personally found the meaning of "hit it out of the (ball)park" immediately clear from the way it was used) or obscure depending on the language experience of the person hearing it.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby golyplot » Mon May 10, 2021 8:32 pm

Le Baron wrote:
I watched/listened again. The word she confirmed for Anne Hathaway "illusionary" is not a word as far as I'm concerned. The word is 'illusory'. People will cite dictionaries. I go for the Chambers usually because it is discerning. My Oxford has been nicked, but I have a shorter Oxford and it's not in there either. It may reside in a U.S. dictionary, which I will grudgingly accept. 8-)


There's eight Magic: The Gathering cards with "illusionary" in the name, so regardless of dictionary status, it is in use "in the wild".

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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cainntear » Mon May 10, 2021 10:48 pm

Dragon27 wrote:(I personally found the meaning of "hit it out of the (ball)park" immediately clear from the way it was used)

In the way it was used, in the context it was used it.

But what if you weren't sure there wasn't scorn or sarcasm? Not to mention that in many games hitting anything out of the park is likely to be a bad thing...
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Dragon27 » Tue May 11, 2021 5:27 am

Cainntear wrote:But what if you weren't sure there wasn't scorn or sarcasm? Not to mention that in many games hitting anything out of the park is likely to be a bad thing...

Sarcasm is a pretty complex topic. Everything can be said with or without sarcasm (and some phrases, like "yeah, right" may be used in a sarcastic way more often than others). Sarcasm is usually picked up on from subtle intonation cues and the overall situation/context. Not all people are good at spotting it. Pretty sure that in a business settings, especially with a bunch of foreigners, the use of sarcasm should be avoided unless it's downright obvious.
Anyway, I don't know if hitting something out of the park is a good thing in baseball. Probably is (at least in some of the situations), if the idiom is used in this way. But I have no idea how baseball works. I've seen it in action in many american movies/shows, but it still remains quite an esoteric activity to me. People are throwing balls, hitting them, running around the field, and then mark some points in an arbitrary manner. They also switch roles from time to time. Sometimes it seems like they're just play-pretending.
The idiom at least paints a vivid picture: hitting something so hard that it flies out of some park. Combined with the usage (describing some excellent performance) it was enough to solidify the association for me.
Last edited by Dragon27 on Tue May 11, 2021 11:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Jim » Tue May 11, 2021 5:49 am

Le Baron wrote:I watched/listened again. The word she confirmed for Anne Hathaway "illusionary" is not a word as far as I'm concerned. The word is 'illusory'. People will cite dictionaries. I go for the Chambers usually because it is discerning. My Oxford has been nicked, but I have a shorter Oxford and it's not in there either. It may reside in a U.S. dictionary, which I will grudgingly accept. 8-)


It’s in my Chambers 10th edition and my Merriam Webster International Dictionary 3rd edn.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby golyplot » Tue May 11, 2021 6:19 am

Dragon27 wrote:Anyway, I don't know if hitting something out of the park is a good thing in baseball. Probably is (at least in some of the situations), if the idiom is used in this way. But I have no idea how baseball works. I've seen it in action in many american movies/shows, but it still remains a quite esoteric activity to me. People are throwing balls, hitting it, running around the field, and then mark some points in an arbitrary manner. They also switch roles from time to time. Sometimes it seems that they're just pretending to play a game.
The idiom at least paints a vivid picture: hitting something so hard that it flies out of some park. Combined with the usage (describing some excellent performance) it was enough to solidify the association for me.


The goal is for the batter to hit the ball, and then run around the bases before the opposing team retrieves the ball and catches you with it. If you hit it "out of the park" that means you hit it so far that the defending team can't possibly retrieve it, meaning that you automatically score (as do any of your teammates who are currently on base).

Usually, you won't be able to make it all the way around all four bases before the defending team catches the ball, so you have to stop on a base part way, and then wait for a team mate to hit the ball so you can continue running and hopefully finish making it around to score. A hit is called a "single", "double", "triple", etc. depending on how many bases you made it to before being forced to stop. If you make it around all four bases in a single hit, it's called a "home run" since you ran all the way around and returned to "home base" (the base where you start). Hitting it out of the park guarantees a home run for obvious reasons.

When a batter fails to hit the ball three times ("three strikes and you're out") or is caught by the defending players before making it safely to a base, they're "out". After three outs, the teams switch positions. The goal is to score as much as possible while you're on offense and prevent the other team from scoring while you're on defense.

Additionally, if a pitcher throws an illegal pitch four times (and the batter correctly recognizes that the pitches are illegal and declines to swing at them), they get to go to first base for free without hitting the ball, which is known as "walking", since they don't need to run. Sometimes a pitcher will deliberately walk a batter since it prevents them from potentially hitting a double, triple, home run, etc.
Last edited by golyplot on Tue May 11, 2021 6:35 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Adrianslont » Tue May 11, 2021 6:27 am

Le Baron wrote:Yes indeed, she said crèche in an unusual way. In the UK people use the French pronunciation of the 'è' (though not the 'r'). So I assume hers is the Aussie way? Or just the Cate way. :lol:

Yes, most Australians pronounce crèche like that.

Not related to her pronunciation of crèche but I’ll note that Cate does speak Cultivated Australian English as opposed to General Australian English or Broad Australian English.

Just in case anyone was wondering.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Le Baron » Tue May 11, 2021 9:14 am

Jim wrote:
Le Baron wrote:I watched/listened again. The word she confirmed for Anne Hathaway "illusionary" is not a word as far as I'm concerned. The word is 'illusory'. People will cite dictionaries. I go for the Chambers usually because it is discerning. My Oxford has been nicked, but I have a shorter Oxford and it's not in there either. It may reside in a U.S. dictionary, which I will grudgingly accept. 8-)


It’s in my Chambers 10th edition and my Merriam Webster International Dictionary 3rd edn.

Really? It's not in the 13th edition. I compare it to the similar form of a word like: Deride > Derision > Derisory. 'Derisionary' is not a known word.

I don't think it is a legitimate word. It's one of those popular forms that wheedles its way into a dictionary. There's little to do about this because as Wittgenstein noted, so long as everyone can decode it and understand it, it's accepted language.
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby Cainntear » Tue May 11, 2021 2:42 pm

Le Baron wrote:I compare it to the similar form of a word like: Deride > Derision > Derisory. 'Derisionary' is not a known word.

Is there a verb "illude"? No? To most English speakers, "illusion" is the known form and has therefore been reanalysed as the root.

I don't think it is a legitimate word. It's one of those popular forms that wheedles its way into a dictionary.

"It's" is not a legitimate word; tis merely one of those popular forms that struts and frets its hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more. </sarcasm>
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Re: Tower Of Babble: Non-Native Speakers Navigate The World Of 'Good' And 'Bad' English

Postby rdearman » Tue May 11, 2021 4:42 pm

Le Baron & Cainntear aren't you basically just agreeing with each other?
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