Beautiful German words not for Anki

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Kat
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Kat » Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:43 am

Saim wrote:I'm not aware of ever having argued that Himbeermarmeladenschiff isn't a single word. What I'm saying is that raspberry jam trade ship is also one word (or, to get more technical, a single lexeme) despite the spaces.


I had asked earlier in the thread because I wasn't sure what you had meant. Sorry for the misunderstanding and thanks for clarifying.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Saim » Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:43 am

All good! :)
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby patrickwilken » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:40 am

Kat wrote:I've always loved this word. The English title in the bilingual version is "The very hungry caterpillar" but to me Nimmersatt (someone who is so greedy for food that they can't get enough, no matter how much they eat) is even more descriptive.


I like "Nimmersatt" also. I guess I would translate it as "never satisfied", but that's not quite right.

Talking of children's words I like Kuscheltier (lit. cuddle-animal = stuffed toy). My wife was embarrassed to tell me at lunch she used to listen to "Kuschelrock" as a teenager which I guess was something like cuddly love rock music. :)
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Mista » Fri Sep 14, 2018 11:55 am

Saim wrote:I'm not aware of ever having argued that Himbeermarmeladenschiff isn't a single word. What I'm saying is that raspberry jam trade ship is also one word (or, to get more technical, a single lexeme) despite the spaces.


I'm with you on that. Of course, you can define a word as anything between spaces, but that doesn't mean you should.

Getting back to the original topic, I found a nice little compound (in Norwegian) in Expugnator's log:

Expugnator wrote:Norwegian

Image



It doesn't surprise me that he doesn't know the word snikøre, because you'll never find it in a dictionary, and not in many other places either - if any. It means "sneaky ear", and in this context, it refers to someone who is eavesdropping while pretending to be asleep.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Sep 14, 2018 2:27 pm

Saim wrote:Sorry for hijacking this thread with the philosophy of linguistics, I didn't think my throw-away comment about how English and German are closer to each other than you might think would provoke this much discussion. :)

zenmonkey wrote:
Hashimi wrote:
zenmonkey wrote: the conventional definition of what a word is.

a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and shown with a space on either side when written or printed.


Writing or printing are irrelevant here.


Says you. :lol: And yet, here we are writing and not speaking.


Not just hashimi. Generally linguists do not consider writing to be an inherent part of language. Grammar is posterior to writing so I'm not sure how grammatical categories can be defined according to orthographic criteria, unless we're specifically talking about the grammar of the written language as a distinct code.

Who made these definitions?


Do you see the "when"? It's a causal statement.
It doesn't mean that the language is written by obligation.

Yes, I'm quite aware that languages exist without writing (I mean, c'mon, I'm not 8).
But we are talking about long written words for Anki. We can posit that we are talking about languages that are also sometimes written.

(If you do sound in Anki, the length of the words really doesn't matter...)

And, as far as I know, both English and German have a long history of being written.

As to the definitions? The first comes from the an English language dictionary... kind of the reference in definitions (https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/word). The others? Ask any German on the street if "Handschuh" is a word or two. See what they say.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Hashimi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 3:50 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and shown with a space on either side when written or printed.


What about languages like Chinese or Japanese? As you know, they don't have spaces even between sentences.


zenmonkey wrote:Ask any German on the street if "Handschuh" is a word or two. See what they say.


Native speakers are not necessarily linguistic experts and most of them are not aware of the difference between lexemes, morphemes, etc.

"Handschuh" comes from Hand + Schuh, and these are two words. So 1 word + 1 word = 2 words. It's basic math!

There is a difference between words and things. A blackboard is one thing, but we call it such because it is a black board. These are two words for one thing, and over time and with more use, it became a compound noun which consists of two words working together as a single unit to name this thing.

A word is the smallest meaningful unit of speech that can stand alone by themselves. It can function independently as words (e.g. dog) and can appear within lexemes (e.g. doghouse), but it cannot be analyzed into smaller elements which can stand alone by themselves.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby rdearman » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:23 pm

Hashimi wrote:So 1 word + 1 word = 2 words. It's basic math!

wikipedia wrote:A portmanteau (/pɔːrtˈmæntoʊ/ (About this sound listen), /ˌpɔːrtmænˈtoʊ/) or portmanteau word is a linguistic blend of words, in which parts of multiple words or their phones (sounds) are combined into a new word, as in smog, coined by blending smoke and fog, or motel, from motor and hotel. In linguistics, a portmanteau is defined as a single morph that represents two or more morphemes.


In French for example:
à + le = au (one word)
à + les = aux

So 1 word + 1 word doesn't always equal 2 words.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby zenmonkey » Fri Sep 14, 2018 4:26 pm

Hashimi wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
a single distinct meaningful element of speech or writing, used with others (or sometimes alone) to form a sentence and shown with a space on either side when written or printed.


What about languages like Chinese or Japanese? As you know, they don't have spaces even between sentences.


What about them? We are talking about German (and English).
Are you looking for universals? Is the possessive 's a word in your definition?

Hashimi wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:Ask any German on the street if "Handschuh" is a word or two. See what they say.

Native speakers are not necessarily linguistic experts and most of them are not aware of the difference between lexemes, morphemes, etc.
"Handschuh" comes from Hand + Schuh, and these are two words. So 1 word + 1 word = 2 words. It's basic math!

True - the mass of Germans are not necessarily linguistic experts and it is an "appeal to masses" on my part. Feel free to post the German linguistic expert that considers "handschuh" to be two words. Until then, the masses have it.
Hashimi wrote:A word is the smallest meaningful unit of speech that can stand alone by themselves. It can function independently as words (e.g. dog) and can appear within lexemes (e.g. doghouse), but it cannot be analyzed into smaller elements which can stand alone by themselves.


I am nonplussed (in the American sense of the word). (and that's one word).

You can continue along this sense, if you like. Is cobweb one or two words for you (cob has lost functional meaning in English, can't be used independently without meaning something totally different). You might then think that wedlock is two words (it isn't, lock here doesn't come from lock)...

preternatural, abnormal, supernatural? Are you going to randomly say that "super" is a word but "ab" may or may not be (yes in German, not in English) and "preter" definitely isn't a word in either. So 1, maybe 2, definitely 2?

I'm sticking with one word.

And if I take and apple and cut it in two, it's still one apple. Basic math.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Hashimi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:01 pm

rdearman wrote:
Hashimi wrote:So 1 word + 1 word = 2 words. It's basic math!

wikipedia wrote:A portmanteau (/pɔːrtˈmæntoʊ/ (About this sound listen), /ˌpɔːrtmænˈtoʊ/) or portmanteau word is a linguistic blend of words, in which parts of multiple words or their phones (sounds) are combined into a new word, as in smog, coined by blending smoke and fog, or motel, from motor and hotel. In linguistics, a portmanteau is defined as a single morph that represents two or more morphemes.


In French for example:
à + le = au (one word)
à + les = aux

So 1 word + 1 word doesn't always equal 2 words.


"au" and "aux" are like "smog", they are single words because they cannot be analyzed (morphologically not etymologically) into smaller elements which can stand alone by themselves.
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Re: Beautiful German words not for Anki

Postby Hashimi » Fri Sep 14, 2018 8:03 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Are you going to randomly say that "super" is a word but "ab" may or may not be (yes in German, not in English) and "preter" definitely isn't a word in either. So 1, maybe 2, definitely 2?


Not randomly. The part "ab-" in the English word "abnormal" is a bound morpheme that can appear only as part of a larger word, so it is not a word. Similarly, the word "shipment" consists of the unbound morpheme "ship", which can stand alone by itself, and the bound morpheme "-ment" which cannot function independently as a word. So "shipment" is one word.


zenmonkey wrote:Is cobweb one or two words for you (cob has lost functional meaning in English, can't be used independently without meaning something totally different). You might then think that wedlock is two words (it isn't, lock here doesn't come from lock)...


If the word has lost its independent meaning (like cob), then it is considered a type of bound morpheme. This type is called cranberry morpheme.
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