Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby fcoulter » Sun Nov 25, 2018 9:46 pm

By request, the wiki posts to date:

I'm going to review the changes made to the wiki over the past thirty days. I'm going to note any concerns below. (I'm not going to review my own changes; in my opinion they're perfect. Others may disagree, but they'd be wrong...)

Dutch - Thanks to Jmetdepet for correcting the spelling. Depending on what's done with the next item on the list, this article may need to be modified.

Nederland - Netherlands - I've got to ask if the plan is to have a bunch of parallel language examples. If so, perhaps the title should indicate what it is, and not just be an article in both languages. I'm waiting for the Swahili / Korean parallel language examples.

Also, when I had heard about the category of Dutch Language Islands, my first thought was on areas in which a variant of Dutch was spoken -- an island -- not parallel language texts. When I looked up the definition of a language island, it had nothing to do with parallel translations of two different languages. Perhaps the category should be Dutch/English Parallel Texts? This also applies to all of the other parallel texts (assuming we think they should be in the Wiki): Amsterdam, Hallo, Tot ziens, Rotterdam, Taalbad, Officiël taal, Heet Weer, Weersvoorspelling, Weekaart, Weer Woorden, Opwarming van de Aarde, Meer Nederlandse Taal Eilanden, Airbus A380, Connectoren, Stad Woorden, Skype Chat, Computer Blogging, Klusjesman, Gebroken gloeilamp, Groenten, Het Eten, Het Ontbijt, De Brunch, Het Avondeten, Ramanujan, Canada, Ottawa, Toronto, Sint Maarten, Fruit, and België.

In fact, I'm not sure what the purpose of all these pages is for a wiki that's supposed to provide information about all the different methods of language learning, along with reviews, etc. I can see that the author went to a lot of trouble, but just because they can be pages in the wiki doesn't mean they should be. Perhaps the author should create a different wiki dedicated to parallel texts of Dutch and English?

Parallel Text: Dutch & English - Someone created an empty article

English monolingual courses - I added the category "Courses" to this article. It would be nice if there were other examples. But it's a start. (Heck, some of the language pages I created merely have an opening paragraph, the normal headers for a language, and a statement that Pimsleur or Duolingo offers a language. So just a start isn't bad.)

With luck, there will be more additions and edits done over the next week so I've got new stuff to grumble about.
Last edited by fcoulter on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby tommus » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:45 pm

fcoulter wrote:Nederland - Netherlands - I've got to ask if the plan is to have a bunch of parallel language examples.

Reading your comment, it is not apparent to me that you have read and understood the short description of "language Islands" or followed some of the discussion here and on HTLAL, and elsewhere, describing how valuable "language islands" can be. The purpose of the parallel Dutch-English text is to understand each language island and to be able to learn it easily. You may want to have Amsterdam or Rotterdam as a language island; a short subject that you want to know well. The longer parallel Dutch-English texts can be used to harvest specific language islands. For example, if you wanted a language island that was the history of Canada, you can find it directly within the longer parallel text of Canada.

fcoulter wrote:Perhaps the author should create a different wiki dedicated to parallel texts of Dutch and English?

If you find my contributions so objectionable, then I will delete all of them and end my contribution to the Wiki even though I have a whole lot more Dutch material I could contribute.

fcoulter wrote:(I'm not going to review my own changes; in my opinion they're perfect. Others may disagree, but they'd be wrong...)

I understand you have applied to FANDOM for administrator privileges. If you insist on your high standard of perfection and your considerable grumbling, then you will likely scare away all those who might contribute.

Members have been asking for a plan. I think the fundamental plan should be "to encourage contributions to the Wiki". I am becoming convinced that grumbling is not a great way to support and encourage contributions.

I think it is time to hear from many of our members.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby smallwhite » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:59 pm

fcoulter, can you maybe cross-reference all your Wiki-related threads in the first post of all of them? There are 7 such threads so far and I can’t find my way.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby fcoulter » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:01 pm

tommus wrote:Reading your comment, it is not apparent to me that you have read and understood the short description of "language Islands" or followed some of the discussion here and on HTLAL, and elsewhere, describing how valuable "language islands" can be. The purpose of the parallel Dutch-English text is to understand each language island and to be able to learn it easily. You may want to have Amsterdam or Rotterdam as a language island; a short subject that you want to know well. The longer parallel Dutch-English texts can be used to harvest specific language islands. For example, if you wanted a language island that was the history of Canada, you can find it directly within the longer parallel text of Canada.


The definition of language island in English is:

A language island is an exclave of a language that is surrounded by one or more different languages.[1]

Examples of language islands:

Saterland
Isleños
Szeklerland
Palenquero
Alghero
Swabian Turkey
Upper Harz
Betawi
Chipilo and Chipilo Venetian dialect

That's not at all what you're doing. What you're doing may have value, and I am open to it, but calling a rose a tulip doesn't change the fact that it's not a rose.

When I first saw Dutch Language Islands, I was fascinated by the idea that within The Netherlands (which was a charming place when I was there last year), there were parts of the country which didn't speak Dutch but spoke some other language. What I got were examples of translations.

But as I said, someone needs to be the Admin. (Among other things, only the Admin can delete the page you tried to delete a couple days ago.) If you don't want me as Admin, get someone else to do it. As long as we have one, I'll be happy.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby fcoulter » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:02 pm

smallwhite wrote:fcoulter, can you maybe cross-reference all your Wiki-related threads in the first post of all of them? There are 7 such threads so far and I can’t find my way.


I added the following to the top post. I don't want to bother adding them to the earlier posts, but will if you think it's a good idea.

By request, the wiki posts to date:
Last edited by fcoulter on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby eido » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:10 pm

I'll make my own edits to the Wiki, and I'll take suggestions from people since I realize I may not be perfect. But if they come in the vein of something snarky or from a position of an attitude of condescension, I'll be sure to ignore them.

fcoulter wrote:Also, when I had heard about the category of Dutch Language Islands, my first thought was on areas in which a variant of Dutch was spoken -- an island -- not parallel language texts.

A language island is a piece of text which you've memorized so so you can talk more fluidly, quickly. So for instance, if you memorize how to say, "My name is eido. I'm from the United States. I speak Spanish at a B1 level. I would like to learn more Spanish," you're memorizing an island. It's called as such because it's not individual words.

Maybe don't rely on Wikipedia for your information. It's not always so reliable.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby smallwhite » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:13 pm

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:fcoulter, can you maybe cross-reference all your Wiki-related threads in the first post of all of them? There are 7 such threads so far and I can’t find my way.


Crap, that's a lot of work.

You get likes...
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:19 pm

I'd really prefer people focused on adding new content or editing content to improve it, rather than deleting other user's content.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby fcoulter » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:32 pm

tommus wrote:If you find my contributions so objectionable, then I will delete all of them and end my contribution to the Wiki even though I have a whole lot more Dutch material I could contribute.


I was looking at the article on the Dutch language, and what it badly needs is more information about the Phonology, Grammar, and Orthography of the language. (I'm assuming you're a native Dutch speaker, so the Common difficulties would be foreign to you, although I'm sure you can tell us everything that's wrong with English.) You could also organize all the resources so that they're not just a simple list.
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Re: Wiki Grumbles & Reviews

Postby zenmonkey » Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:42 pm

eido wrote:I'll make my own edits to the Wiki, and I'll take suggestions from people since I realize I may not be perfect. But if they come in the vein of something snarky or from a position of an attitude of condescension, I'll be sure to ignore them.

fcoulter wrote:Also, when I had heard about the category of Dutch Language Islands, my first thought was on areas in which a variant of Dutch was spoken -- an island -- not parallel language texts.

A language island is a piece of text which you've memorized so so you can talk more fluidly, quickly. So for instance, if you memorize how to say, "My name is eido. I'm from the United States. I speak Spanish at a B1 level. I would like to learn more Spanish," you're memorizing an island. It's called as such because it's not individual words.

Maybe don't rely on Wikipedia for your information. It's not always so reliable.


The concepts Language Islands, Chunking, etc... all should have there own Wiki page like Shadowing, etc have. :D

Islands are pre-defined speeches on common topics that you can swim to when you feel as if you’re drowning in a difficult conversation. Reciting one of these speeches gives confidence both to you and the native speaker, and allows you to rest mentally before plunging back into less familiar waters.


it's a technique explained by Boris Shekhtman in the book "How To Improve Your Foreign Language Immediately"

http://andrewblackman.net/2013/04/how-t ... mediately/
Last edited by zenmonkey on Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:52 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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