New LLorg Wiki articles

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby fcoulter » Tue Nov 27, 2018 12:05 am

tommus wrote:Update on Dutch Language Islands:

I moved the main description of Dutch Language Islands and associated links to a sub-page in the Wiki. I replaced this information that was on the main Dutch page with a very short description of Dutch Language Islands, and moved it further down the main Dutch page. I added this statement: "These islands are also a good source of Dutch/English parallel text." I don't think there is any need for a separate section for parallel Dutch/English text, but there could be if necessary. And there could be Dutch/"other language" parallel text, and related islands for that matter.

The main Dutch page in the Wiki


If, as you state, these islands are a good idea, I would hope that other people created islands for their favorite language pairs, too. That's another good reason that having an article on Language Islands in general is a good idea. Rather than each language's list of language islands having to duplicate the definition of what the heck a language island is, they could link to the article, and merely start the list with "The following are language islands for Dutch/English" or whatever the language pair is. Articles should be relatively self contained, or contain links to fill in the gaps of the article.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby smallwhite » Tue Nov 27, 2018 1:18 am

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:When you become admin, will you be able to change the name of the wiki to something LLorgier?


I think the reason the original name is what it is (and this is just a guess) is that it was supposed to support both forums.

It might make more sense for whoever the owner is of the language-learners.org domain to...

You appear rather unfamiliar with the 2 sites. Just a couple examples up there on top of the Language Island issue. Having a veteran co-administrator might make life easier.

-

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

-

Hmmm, neither of the above actually fit under “New LLorg Wiki articles”.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby fcoulter » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:25 am

smallwhite wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:When you become admin, will you be able to change the name of the wiki to something LLorgier?


I think the reason the original name is what it is (and this is just a guess) is that it was supposed to support both forums.

It might make more sense for whoever the owner is of the language-learners.org domain to...

You appear rather unfamiliar with the 2 sites. Just a couple examples up there on top of the Language Island issue. Having a veteran co-administrator might make life easier.

-

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

-

Hmmm, neither of the above actually fit under “New LLorg Wiki articles”.


1) the two sites appear to be active, and the wiki refers to both of them. That's why I made the assumption I made.

2) I have no problem with a co-administrator. I have no problem if someone else is the administrator. However, the position is currently empty.

3) Why is there a separate wiki site? Because whoever set up the wiki did so as a separate site? I sure as hell did not do all the work setting up the wiki. All I've done is expand two articles and some clean up. There's lots of work by others in the wiki, dating back (probably) over a decade. Asking me about decisions made a decade ago will result in guesses from me.

4) Yes, your questions and my answers probably could be in a different thread, but they're here.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby smallwhite » Tue Nov 27, 2018 3:50 am

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:When you become admin, will you be able to change the name of the wiki to something LLorgier?


I think the reason the original name is what it is (and this is just a guess) is that it was supposed to support both forums.

It might make more sense for whoever the owner is of the language-learners.org domain to...

You appear rather unfamiliar with the 2 sites. Just a couple examples up there on top of the Language Island issue. Having a veteran co-administrator might make life easier.

-

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

-

Hmmm, neither of the above actually fit under “New LLorg Wiki articles”.


1) the two sites appear to be active, and the wiki refers to both of them. That's why I made the assumption I made.

2) I have no problem with a co-administrator. I have no problem if someone else is the administrator. However, the position is currently empty.

3) Why is there a separate wiki site? Because whoever set up the wiki did so as a separate site? I sure as hell did not do all the work setting up the wiki. All I've done is expand two articles and some clean up. There's lots of work by others in the wiki, dating back (probably) over a decade. Asking me about decisions made a decade ago will result in guesses from me.

4) Yes, your questions and my answers probably could be in a different thread, but they're here.

> 3) Why is there a separate wiki site? Because whoever set up the wiki did so as a separate site? ... Asking me about decisions made a decade ago will result in guesses from me.

You rephrased my question completely changing it, and then you found my-now-your question silly.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby fcoulter » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:18 pm

smallwhite wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?


Why is there a separate wiki site? Because whoever set up the wiki did so as a separate site? I sure as hell did not do all the work setting up the wiki. All I've done is expand two articles and some clean up. There's lots of work by others in the wiki, dating back (probably) over a decade. Asking me about decisions made a decade ago will result in guesses from me.


> 3) Why is there a separate wiki site? Because whoever set up the wiki did so as a separate site? ... Asking me about decisions made a decade ago will result in guesses from me.


You rephrased my question completely changing it, and then you found my-now-your question silly.



I don't see how I rephrased your question. You asked why there's a separate site, and I answered that the decision to have a separate site was made over a decade ago, by people other than me.

As for why we don't use the main LLorg section, I can make a couple of guesses. First, the wiki was bringing together info from two sites, not just LL. As such, the decision a while ago may have been to try to find neutral territory. More importantly, I don't know how hard it would have been to install and maintain wiki software on LL ten years ago. (Actually, I don't know how hard it would be to do it now, but I haven't researched it.)

So the question may be why a wiki, not just a blog, or a forum, or whatever. That's because a wiki is fundamentally a collaborative information sharing platform. If someone creates an article on Rosetta Stone, someone else can then add more information to the article, and then someone else can add even more information. As such, information in the wiki is greater than the information held by any one individual. A blog post is a single person's view and responsibility. A forum thread tends to be very disorganized.

The Rosetta Stone article is a great example. The existing article was badly out of date. I went in there to update the information and to list the available languages. After I sketched out the additions, someone else went in there and did a great job of updating the history of the software as well as adding additional information to the various language offerings. The other person didn't have to contact me, or the original author, to improve the article. I didn't have to contact the original author. Wiki's are probably one of the best tools to create and share knowledge collaboratively. I'm also still tweaking the article, and I suspect that other's may go in there, too. (At least I hope others will share their knowledge of the software.)
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby smallwhite » Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:48 pm

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

Why is there a separate wiki site? Because...

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
You rephrased my question completely changing it, and then you found my-now-your question silly.

I don't see how I rephrased your question. You asked why there's a separate site, and I answered that...

You have raised some interesting questions and then made some interesting guesses at the answers. I shall ask (us members) a question, too, which is just my original question:

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use? Or probably more idiomatically, Why are we using a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby Ser » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:06 pm

smallwhite wrote:Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use? Or probably more idiomatically, Why are we using a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

I for one would love to have the wiki on our own language-learners.org server instead of Wikia, but our administrators would have to set up a wiki, and site development has so far been very slow (it runs on the time of two volunteers, and last time I heard we still have pipeline problems).

Actually, what do you mean by "the main LLorg section"? If you mean the articles & blog, there's the issue of how difficult making edits is. You either use git / GitHub (not intuitive at all for non-programmers who aren't used to it) or you make the post proposals in this subforum (a very, very slow process).

I'd like to cheer our volunteer administrators so that they set up a wiki on the site, but for now using Wikia seems alright.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby David1917 » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:19 pm

smallwhite wrote:Why are we using a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?


Because of the collaborative nature of a wiki, as indicated above. A blog post to me is more like the kind of longer musing one might find in a language log, with one author (or a couple in obvious collaboration) that is written once and completed. The wiki is a living entity to be modified as new information becomes available, or in the case of language programs, new editions are released.

I just looked at the main part of the site and think the "How to learn a language FAQ" should be listed as a blog post serving as the opinion/guide of the author; and the Language Profiles should be deleted and moved to the Wiki so as to be more collaborative.
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:49 pm

smallwhite wrote:
fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?

Why is there a separate wiki site? Because...

fcoulter wrote:
smallwhite wrote:
You rephrased my question completely changing it, and then you found my-now-your question silly.

I don't see how I rephrased your question. You asked why there's a separate site, and I answered that...

You have raised some interesting questions and then made some interesting guesses at the answers. I shall ask (us members) a question, too, which is just my original question:

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use? Or probably more idiomatically, Why are we using a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?


Technically: The wiki software used is hosted on a separate site. To place it on the main website at www. or wiki. would simply need a redirect to that hosted content or setting up our own wiki hosting and point to that.

Why are there two locations for content? One is wiki software allowing for live editing using wiki like language (the life of that site is outside the control of the admins) the other is a blog with version control and publication management (by the admins) on github - and it’s better structured for single blog posts and not wiki like hyperlinks (publication steps require some approval).
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Re: New LLorg Wiki articles

Postby fcoulter » Tue Nov 27, 2018 7:52 pm

smallwhite wrote:I shall ask (us members) a question, too, which is just my original question:

Why do we use a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use? Or probably more idiomatically, Why are we using a separate wiki site when there’s the main LLorg section we could use?


I did a little (defined as a five second Google search) research, and there does appear to be free downloadable wiki software. So at least it's conceivable for the webmasters to set up a local wiki under the direct control of LL. There are a couple questions that should probably be addressed.

First and foremost, do the LL administrators want to take on the job of installing and maintaining the new subdomain? Depending on the contract with the web hosting company we're currently using, that may be more interesting than it first sounds. Some web hosting companies only let you run certain software, but the installation of that software is completely painless. Others give you a large menu of programs you can install (hopefully with a free wiki on the list), and the installation is relatively painless. Finally, there are others that are basically only renting CPU and hard drive time and space, and what you do with it is wide open. So the LL administrators would weigh that into their decision.

Of course, they could draft someone else as yet another administrator. Actually, that brings up an interesting question. Administration really has two components, and you don't necessarily need the same person doing both sides. You need a software administrator, who maintains the software, upgrades the software, puts in security patches, etc. And you need a content administrator. (For the forums, that would be a moderator.) They can be the same person (or persons), or they can be different. And it can be site wide, or for each piece of software.

Second, do we want to carry over the existing content, or do we want to recreate everything from scratch. Since there are only 300+ articles, it probably wouldn't be a complete pain in the ass to copy the articles by hand. But if there's a tool that will migrate a Wikia wiki to whatever new software we use, it would make life easier.

However, if we decide to move the wiki to our own site, it would be more work. A lot of work initially, but not much in the long run. I have no dogs in this fight. (Actually, I wouldn't want to see my work on the wiki abandoned. But that can be worked around.) The site administrators have the most.
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