Content for a new site- language profiles, etc.

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Serpent
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Serpent » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:21 pm

Expugnator wrote:it would be interesting to have advice like "this textbook works better at earlier stages and that other one at upper-A2" or "I found those light novels to be the best start into native material and after four translated novels I could tackle a native original novel with an English translation" or even "this or that Youtube learning channel has enough content to keep you busy while you can't watch original series, but you will make a better use of it when you're at an A2 stage".

I generally agree, although the one I bolded is more of a universal experience that isn't language-specific. Although one can certainly mention which popular books have good translations or good audiobooks. But in my opinion most non-beginner advice should have the "if... then.." format. or "when I had problem X, I solved it the Y way".
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Expugnator » Thu Jul 30, 2015 1:28 pm

Not playing the devil's advocate, but when I start Spanish proper I have no intention of picking translated novels whatsoever. Neither for Italian.

I agree with you, it's just a matter of finding a compromise to make the text look like a unitary one instead of a mere juxtaposition of learners' testimonials.
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Serpent » Thu Jul 30, 2015 2:13 pm

We could certainly do with more advice for learning a second Romance, Slavic or Germanic language.

(By universal I mean general, but I had already used the word "generally" in the same sentence.)
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:36 pm

For me, the language profiles - provided by the old site or UCLA, are often missing a critical element of richer "further sources of information" and "available learning resources". I'd love to see something that cover that significantly better than what was written up prior.

For example, for German, on the old site, the overall presentation isn't bad even if the explanation of history is rather insulting to the reader (Really, history starts before the 30s?). But the Resources section was particularly poor.

There's a wealth of material to learn german. Among the best - if not the cheapest - packages, are :
Pimsleur Speak and Read Essential German, 3 volumes, 90 lessons, 45 hours, to be purchased through Amazon.com (they have a 20% discount)

Pimsleur Speak and Read Essential German I, 206$
Pimsleur Speak and Read Essential German II, 206$
Pimsleur Speak and Read Essential German III, 206$
FSI Basic German, that you can purchase through Barron's Educational Series for about $79 a volume, or pay more at Audioforum.

(no, I neither work for Pimsleur nor for the FSI)


I believe the world has evolved beyond Pimsleur and FSI.

Anyway, I guess I'll willingly edit entries like: http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/German ... However, I will wait until (if?) the Wikia Mission Statement or "Relationship with the Forum" are clearer that the content there in fully independent "The goal of this wiki is to complement the forums at HTLAL" just does not invite me to participate at this point, So I'll keep my input on my log here and eventually transfer it over.
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Hrhenry » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:46 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Anyway, I guess I'll willingly edit entries like: http://learnanylanguage.wikia.com/wiki/German ... However, I will wait until (if?) the Wikia Mission Statement or "Relationship with the Forum" are clearer that the content there in fully independent "The goal of this wiki is to complement the forums at HTLAL" just does not invite me to participate at this point, So I'll keep my input on my log here and eventually transfer it over.

This is unrelated to the thread, but something like "learnanylanguage.com" might be worth looking into when it comes time to rename this site (although it looks to be a parked domain at the moment.) Or something similar to it. It's easy enough to remember, and shouldn't cause any confusion with HTLAL, since that name is renewed for a few years.

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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby neofight78 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:24 pm

I think it would be a great idea to have a forum, wiki and blog all under one umbrella. Apologies for the buzzword, but it could create some real synergy with the whole being greater than the sum of the parts. (As an aside I do think a CC license would be appropriate for the wiki and the blog)

Looking at the questions crop up on italki, it's often the same ones over and over, where people just don't know where to start or perhaps are struggling with a particular aspect of the language. e.g. "How do I learn Russian?", "How do I learn the Russian cases?" etc. So you could have language profiles, combined with FAQs, people's own experiences and links to articles that discuss various learning techniques, key resources etc. As others have said this material could filter down from the forum, and would be much more accessible and beginner friendly than simply maintaining an archive of old threads and posts (although that does have some value in itself).

I think there are some exciting opportunities and ideas that could be developed...
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Re: Language Profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby iguanamon » Sat Aug 01, 2015 3:48 pm

When I came across the UCLA information, I thought it might be useful to add to any section a new site might have, for languages with which we have little knowledge. My ideal for any new site would be to make it the "go to" site for anyone interested in learning a language. I do believe that we will need a new site and not just a standalone forum. Some people may drop by, get the information they need and move on. Others, who get the same information will have lots of questions, may look at the forum, find it interesting and lurk for a while. These folks become the genesis of a new generation.

This thread has gone beyond language profiles. So, since I started it, I am renaming the thread- Content for a new site- language profiles, etc. This way we can get everyone's ideas for what a new site should contain, perhaps using HTLAL as a beginning template. If we do this with care and deliberative consideration, we can keep being relevant. Some of those who come for the content may decide to stay and participate in the forum. Some of my preliminary ideas are:

a) As many custom language profiles as possible, including recommended courses, grammars, websites and dictionaries- profiles written by knowledgeable members.
b) Language learning techniques, systems
c) Historic and modern polyglot profiles (perhaps difficult to keep uncontroversial unless written by the actual modern polyglot personally)
d) Success stories (I was once a monolingual like you; how learning X improved my life)
e) Cost effective ways to learn for learners on a budget
f) Common mistakes new learners make and how to recognize them
g) What to do after you finish your course and how to learn without it.
h) Technology and software that aids language learning
i) Mobile friendly learning including social media and language learning
j) Books about language learning (as uncontroversially reviewed as possible)
k) The value of participating in the forum.
l) Objective (as possible) course descriptions and reviews
m) Review annually and update said information to keep it relevant- eliminating or updating dead links, etc.

These are just some preliminary ideas to start a discussion on what our front door should look like now that it appears increasingly likely that we will have to re-invent the wheel, if we wish to remain relevant into the future.
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Re: Content for a new site- language profiles, etc. formerly Language profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Chung » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:29 pm

Thank you to those who have praised my profiles. I like to think that they try to address as many points as possible for prospective learners plus a few points that may not have occurred to them in the first place.

For a new site, I think that something like a clone of HTLAL in its organization would be ideal. Hell, Benny's site or even Lingq are similar once you exclude the fact that they're selling something of their creation on the front page.

Contrary to my reluctance to retype old material, I am willing to contribute to at least some profiles if the need arises. However in the interest of avoiding potential copyright problems, I think that I'll need to modify them so that they're not rip-offs of the ones that I created for the old site (by the way, the Estonian profile found its way verbatim to a blog for people interested in Estonian). I've never liked the sub-section about economic importance in a language profile but put something intelligible there anyway per FX's layout to keep things consistent. This kind of retooling would be trickier for the group profiles since I created those per my tastes which ignored some sections that FX had in his original profiles. If I were to recreate these, I can't see how I'd do them differently or modify the text.
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Re: Content for a new site- language profiles, etc. formerly Language profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby Takra jenai » Mon Aug 03, 2015 3:35 pm

There doesn't seem to be any Pashto profile there, or did I miss something?
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Re: Content for a new site- language profiles, etc. formerly Language profiles- Why reinvent the wheel?

Postby kimchizzle » Mon Aug 03, 2015 4:09 pm

I like Iguanomon's suggestions and also trying to use the old HTLAL profiles as a blueprint while still trying to avoid copyright issues.

I also think a simple arbitrary difficulty for each language with a profile would be nice for new learners. Although such a difficulty rating will never be 100% objective, you can make it based on the old FSI difficulty assessment, where they had Arabic, Mandarin Chinese, Japanese and Russian as some of the most difficult lanaguages for English speakers. Also languages could be given difficulty for specific parts like grammar, vocabulary and writing system. I think the old HTLAL did something similar.

I guess any difficulty would need to use English as a base and then rank languages as more or less difficult than English and what parts are specifically more or less difficult.
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