I won't be going back to HTLAL

[zenmonkey]

I liked the HTLAL site a lot (and paid for it too) but after years of issues and relatively poor feedback from the owner - no significant upgrades and a clunky interface I've decided that this is a one way ticket for me.

Either this new site works out and evolves into a standalone or bridged community or I'll move on to a lonely personal blog.

For me the value has always bee the community and content not the platform. But as the old HTLAL wasn't evolving and was locked down to paying customers that were NOT getting better value, just access to their own content, I feel that that experience and frustration is not one I will willingly go back to.

Also, should the decision be made to hand this implementation over to HTLAL, I'll be leaving too - there is no way I see that this would lead to a healthy change in site management.

Just thought it was worth stating - I know some discussion is going on in different threads - sql errors, etc. and felt that it merits its own thread.

[Serpent]

Also, should the decision be made to hand this implementation over to HTLAL, I'll be leaving too - there is no way I see that this would lead to a healthy change in site management.

Do you mean to FX? This site already belongs to HTLAL'ers and is managed mostly by HTLAL mods. If this forum is moved to the old HTLAL, the goal would be exactly to have more than one person with admin rights and to keep the site maintained actively. Although phpBB is going to be better than the HTLAL software even if it's never upgraded.

[emk]

I personally agree that it would be bad to lose control over our future, or to go back to the old software. This community needs actively maintained forum software.

But at the same time, I have 2,600+ posts at the old forum, out of a community total of 541,000 posts over almost 10 years. The only person who has a legal license from the original authors to keep all that history online is the administrator. In the beginning, he worked hard to build an excellent language-learning community. More recently, he's upgraded servers, fixed SQL injection bugs, and kept the site (mostly) online. The moderators want to give him an opportunity to participate in the discussion, if he so chooses. If he declines that opportunity, well, at least we can say we tried. But if he talks to us, then that puts a lot of opportunities on the table that might be to everyone's advantage. We'd much prefer to look for a solution where everyone is happy, and the past is not entirely lost, and this community gains a secure future with lots of growth.

(I'll be out for most of today, busy elsewhere.)

[zenmonkey]

Also, should the decision be made to hand this implementation over to HTLAL, I'll be leaving too - there is no way I see that this would lead to a healthy change in site management.

Do you mean to FX? This site already belongs to HTLAL'ers and is managed mostly by HTLAL mods. If this forum is moved to the old HTLAL, the goal would be exactly to have more than one person with admin rights and to keep the site maintained actively. Although phpBB is going to be better than the HTLAL software even if it's never upgraded.

Mostly, yes. FX has some possible claim to the moniker "How-To-Learn-Any-Language" given copyright and what not. The fact that we were member of a site and part of the forum community does not give us the claim for the brand name even if we are currently parked on the URL. But without getting into that discussion which I hope we avoid long term ...

Yes. If this forum site implementation moves to a decision to be adminstered by FX directly (with decision rights on locking out content function like search to paying customers, etc.) then it is just a point of frustration for me and I feel not worth my time. The number of technical issues that existed and were NOT worked on since 2008 led me to leave - not interested in seeing this evolve to that. Not interested in seeing this dropped because the old site promises to be updated, upgraded or what not.

edit:homonym fail

[zenmonkey]

I personally agree that it would be bad to lose control over our future, or to go back to the old software. This community needs actively maintained forum software.

But at the same time, I have 2,600+ posts at the old forum, out of a community total of 541,000 posts over almost 10 years. The only person who has a legal license from the original authors to keep all that history online is the administrator. In the beginning, he worked hard to build an excellent language-learning community. More recently, he's upgraded servers, fixed SQL injection bugs, and kept the site (mostly) online. The moderators want to give him an opportunity to participate in the discussion, if he so chooses. If he declines that opportunity, well, at least we can say we tried. But if he talks to us, then that puts a lot of opportunities on the table that might be to everyone's advantage. We'd much prefer to look for a solution where everyone is happy, and the past is not entirely lost, and this community gains a secure future with lots of growth.

(I'll be out for most of today, busy elsewhere.)

I understand that you have a closer relationship as do the other mods with whatever maintenance was done. That is great, however the decisions and maintenance and evolution of the site over the past left me unsatisfied.

I do agree that a discussion with the administrator of the old forum is necessary and I hope it leads to a handing over of the keys to more open management. If the idea is to hand over the keys of what you are building here to that model then that is where I will have my own set of reserves.

I complete agree with the bolded.

As to the history of the site - I do hope an agreement is reached to preserve content or allow a global extract or the authors of posts can find a way to copy their content to a new platform (I can see someone writing a script to let one copy their own posts...)

[Serpent]

according to rdearman, domain names are not copyrighted and we can't have any legal problems due to this. it can be seen as morally wrong to keep the same one, although it also makes it easier to find BOTH sites. (I personally wouldn't see that as wrong unless FX explicitly demands that this site use a different domain name, but the decision will be mostly up to rdearman and emk)

edit: i don't think it makes sense to limit the extremely basic functions when we're adding much more advanced features like the progress bar. i'm sure FX understands that whoever STILL pays does it mostly to support the site. i'm not even sure on phpBB it's technically easy/possible to make this sort of features Pro only.

[rdearman]

according to rdearman, domain names are not copyrighted and we can't have any legal problems due to this.

Posting as the site-admin here:
The domain is mine, I own the .org domain to do with as I will, but there may be trademark questions. So my preference is we come to an amicable agreement with FX (sooner rather than later) which allows us to both update and maintain this software and grow the community, while still keeping all the great posts and content from both sites. I don't know what the future holds, however if this goes on, I might change the site domain just to avoid possible trademark problems, and just out of common courtesy.

[James29]

I might change the site domain just to avoid possible trademark problems

Yes, if this site is going to continue it would be advisable to change the domain name.

[iguanamon]

I personally agree that it would be bad to lose control over our future, or to go back to the old software. This community needs actively maintained forum software.

But at the same time, I have 2,600+ posts at the old forum, out of a community total of 541,000 posts over almost 10 years. The only person who has a legal license from the original authors to keep all that history online is the administrator. ... The moderators want to give him an opportunity to participate in the discussion, if he so chooses. If he declines that opportunity, well, at least we can say we tried. But if he talks to us, then that puts a lot of opportunities on the table that might be to everyone's advantage. We'd much prefer to look for a solution where everyone is happy, and the past is not entirely lost, and this community gains a secure future with lots of growth. ...

I am a "pro member" at HTLAL.com. I did it to support the site (how naive!). I would do the same at any new site too, if needed. I won't be renewing my pro membership on HTLAL because this last out(r)age was indeed the proverbial straw that broke the camel's back. Facts on the ground have outpaced FX. There are certain things the community will no longer tolerate- lack of communication and transparency being the biggest; slow page loads; forum bugs; outdated software; pay for greater functionality. We've moved beyond that. We voted with our feet. There's no going back to the status quo ante (two weeks ago).

FX still has a chance to retain his legacy by cooperating with us to merge the best of both sites into one superb site. I'd like to give him that chance as the man who started HTLAL.com in the first place. We wouldn't have a community at all if it weren't for his creation. At the same time, we wouldn't be in the situation we are in now if he hadn't abandoned it. At some point, enough time will have elapsed for FX to communicate with us. His lack of a response, will itself be an answer. Then we will have no choice but to move on without him, because going back to the status quo ante is no longer an option. People just won't tolerate the crap anymore. I, too, have over 2100 posts at HTLAL that I don't wont to see go into the ether. Our history is important. With FX's cooperation, we could save it and preserve it. If not, so be it. We'll survive, move on and prosper. Our future can be what we want it to be at a new home, whatever it may be called and wherever that may be eventually.

[Cavesa]

If there was a way to merge the site into a superhtlal with the new software and functions, all the old and new content and a team of people taking care about things, I'd be happy. (I am really grateful to FX, the htlal he had founded has been influencing my life a lot and definitely in positive way, his role shouldn't be underestimated. However, whenever anything but a payed job is a burden on only one pair of shoulders, it is a risk. I won't hold it against him that he just doesn't have the time. But I think it is not unreasonable to expect the burden being spread on other shoulders in such a case.). If the merge isn't possible, than I suppose it is already clear vast majority of people has migrated and our old home forum is becoming mostly an archive.

The best value of the old forum, now that we can be quite sure the community is determined to stick together no matter the address, is the archive of so many threads. All those discussions, all the old logs, all the history and tons of advice we shouldn't lose. If that function of the forum is kept, it will be a victory. Perhaps FX would be willing to have there a visible note "for new content and to participate, join the new forum", so that newbies don't register to a dead site, and keep this huge archive alive for browsing, especially if we cover the expenses.

The question has already been mentioned: the expenses. I never paid pro membership because 40 dollars/year is simply too much for a student to pay for a forum, even if there were some nice functions such as a proper searching tool (but there weren't). But I can send a few dollars here and there to help keep a forum (preferably this one) + archive (the old forum) going. Sacrificing a beer or two every now and then is not gonna hurt. I suppose many htlalers might see it similarily and we shouldn't have much of a trouble gathering enough money for the technical expenses. Of course, the work of our programmers and mods is likely to stay unpaid, and I am totally amazed at their passion and willingness to volunteer and create such an awesome platform for us all. Thanks, guys!
But at least they shouldn't need to pay the expenses from their own pockets.

I would like to see a donation button somewhere on the forum.