A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

[Serpent]

In the long run this basically depends on whether we all abandon the old HTLAL or not.

It does seem like two major rules aren't going to change, namely no politics and no illegal links. (although how about setting up a separate space for the latter, on something like tumblr? i've always thought htlal lacks the tag for "illegal file sharing" )

One more thing that I told rdearman straight away was that I care deeply about avoiding discrimination. The rules need to be updated to be more gender-neutral and welcoming to the LGBTQ+. And unfortunately it seems likely that FX may have missed out on when things like the singular "they" became mainstream. There have also been patronizing attitudes to teenagers/young learners sometimes. (In linguistic terms LGBTQ+ friendliness would include for example not questioning the need for gender neutrality in language, although of course specific implementation can be criticized)

In fact one thing that bothers me is that the community seems eager to welcome any change coming from FX. We should be more critical than that. HTLAL has evolved beyond FX now. The question is whether he can keep up.

[samfrances]

There could be some interesting linguistic discoveries / discussions there. For example, as an English native speaker I'm aware of and use the singular "they". But I'd be fascinated to learn how people deal with these sorts of issues in languages where linguistic gender is less easy to avoid.

[Serpent]

We've had some discussions about that on the old forum, but I was uncomfortable with the tone of straight males saying they see no problem and that's just how language is.

[samfrances]

That's a shame.

I think, aside from being a good thing politically, attempts at gender neutral language are really linguistically interesting. I've read some really fascinating things recently about some Swedish schools that have started using hen as a gender-neutral alternative to hon ("she") and han ("he"), for example.

I suppose where language meets politics there's bound to be some disagreement, but it's a shame if it can't be discussed in a civil and respectful tone.

Anyway, sorry, I'm drifting off topic.

[Serpent]

I'm pretty sure we can discuss that in a civil way as long as the official stance on that is the same as emk's and anyone who disagrees is encouraged to get educated or stay quiet. The current official stance (on the old HTLAL) doesn't really challenge privilege.

[garyb]

anyone who disagrees is encouraged to get educated or stay quiet.

Maybe I've interpreted this the wrong way but I find this a idea a bit concerning, seems like saying people on the forum have to conform to a certain political stance and only certain opinions will be tolerated, which would be a step backwards from the HTLAL policy of avoiding politics in general regardless of stance. The "get educated" part implies a moral high ground, although of course it probably just means to be more aware and accepting of opinions other than your own as opposed to changing your own.

I do think it's a shame that certain interesting discussions are being avoided because of political associations, like gender-neutral pronouns. I'd like to think people would be mature enough to discuss them in a civil manner without feeling the need to bring their own beliefs into the discussion, but apparently that's not been the case in the past. So I'm not trying to say that the current policy doesn't have problems. It's definitely worth considering where it's been problematic and how it can be improved to make the forum more inclusive and keep things respectful towards everyone. I'm just wary of it going too far the other way, especially when we have moderators who happen to have strong opinions - this isn't a criticism, but it could get in the way of the impartial judgement required of moderation.

[Serpent]

What I mean is that it's universally agreed that racism isn't okay on HTLAL, but sexism and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments still slip through and may not be seen as equally bad. Politics imply that something is a matter of opinion. If anyone considers another human's dignity a controversial topic, I don't want them to be welcome on HTLAL, old or new.
Besides, de facto sexism and homophobia have not been tolerated for a long time, there's just no rule against them the way there is against racism.

edit: also, if you disagree you can still discuss the purely linguistic aspects. Just don't dismiss other people's problems, especially if moderators and experienced members see them as real.

As for "impartial moderation", one of the points I've been trying to make is exactly that the question of oppression and privilege shouldn't be dismissed as merely "my word/opinion against yours". It's not okay to tell people to "lighten up" and that they are being too sensitive, "playing the victim card" and whatnot.

[emk]

I'm pretty sure we can discuss that in a civil way as long as the official stance on that is the same as emk's and anyone who disagrees is encouraged to get educated or stay quiet.

I feel uncomfortable about how this message uses my name. I'm not upset, but I want to just put that on the record, and to reserve the right to speak for myself. I know that you're incredibly passionate about this issue, Serpent, and I thank you very much for always pushing me to consider new perspectives.

My personal view is that HTLAL should be welcoming, friendly environment for anybody who wants to discuss languages. This implies a couple of things:

1. Flaming, personal attacks and harassing other users are not OK. Too many unmoderated internet forums eventually turn into cesspools where the biggest asshole wins, and three-fourths of the interesting posters quit because they don't want to put up with it. I want to have the kind of environment where even a very polite, formal polyglot like ProfArguelles could find a way to participate, and where we don't lose our kindest members with the biggest hearts. I also want a forum where people from different countries, different cultures and different minorities can all feel comfortable and discuss language learning. This isn't always easy on an international forum, with people coming from hundreds of cultures all over the world, but if anybody can do it, a bunch of enthusiastic language learners should stand a chance.

EDIT: 1a, because I cross-posted with Serpent: Yes, I absolutely acknowledge that HTLAL has both gay and trans members, and that they have the same right to be treated with courtesy and respect.

2. Moderation should be based on clear guidelines, and it should be predictable.

3. I don't ever want anybody to feel like they have to stay quiet about things that are important. I do hope that people can voice their opinions while treating other members with respect.

Anyway, I just wanted to thank Bakunin for raising some very good points. I can't (for obvious reasons) respond in any detailed way without talking to the rest of the moderators, which will take a while. But we're definitely reading everything that people post, and we're doing out best to understand the wishes of the community and the individual people in it.

EDIT 2: Tried to fix the worst grammar errors and missing words. *sigh*

[Arnaud]

All the forums I have moderated had a private "guardroom" to discuss matters concerning moderations, and to let the steam out when matters become too hot (but that site is very quiet for the time being)
It enables also to take action in a concerted way on certains sensible subjects according to the rules, because even moderators have opinions or prejudices that can false their judgement.

2. Moderation should be based on clear guidelines, and it should be predictable.

100% agreed

[samfrances]

What I mean is that it's universally agreed that racism isn't okay on HTLAL, but sexism and anti-LGBTQ+ sentiments still slip through and may not be seen as equally bad.

I agree with you that gender-neutral language is important and positive, but I'm not sure that someone disagreeing with that is obviously sexist. They may believe just as passionately in gender equality, but disagree that gender as a linguistic phenomenon has much of an impact on social relations, for example. That's not a view I share, but I don't think its beyond the pale either. So while I agree that comments that are clearly racist, sexist or anti-LGBTQ+ should not be tolerated, I worry about the dangers here if we end up mandating particular forms of racial- or gender-politics.

I don't know how to draw the line exactly, but I think a line has to be drawn between hearing political opinions which one dislikes and disagrees with, which everyone has to deal with sometimes, and being subjected to comments that fundamentally attempt to undermine your worth as a human being, on the basis of you gender identity, race, sexual orientation etc., which no one should have to put up with. Of course, I'm not saying the line is easy to draw in practice...

TBH I think political discussions are probably best avoided unless they are absolutely necessary.