A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Stelle
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby Stelle » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:55 pm

I'm going to put in a vote for avoiding politics and religion. Even talking about talking about politics and religion is causing tension! ;)
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby emk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:02 pm

James29 wrote:Here, on the forum, I don't think aggression should be used against posters (deleting/banning/name calling) if there is a legitimate disagreement about the truthfulness of the underlying statement. I also do not think aggression should be used against posters unless there is an objective and obvious risk that harm was intended and likely as a result of the post. That is exactly what the "fire" example was trying to get at.

It looks like you're using an essentially libertarian analytical framework here. It that correct? If so, let see if I can phrase my thoughts in those terms.

If we end up with a new site, and more control over how things are run, I'm suggesting that we think of the forum as a voluntary private association with a set of specific rules about what behaviors are appropriate. These rules might include things like "No politics and religion" (which is certainly a popular rule in many other private associations). Everybody would have the choice to live within the forum's rules, or to leave. But individual posts that broke those rules could still be removed by the moderators. I don't think this qualifies as "aggression" in the technical libertarian sense of that word, does it? Private associations can and do establish rules, as a (sometimes informal) version of freedom of contract.

As for gender neutral language, I do understand that different groups of native speakers have widely divergent opinions about using "he" to refer to persons of unknown gender. I do indeed believe that your colleagues might cross-out singular "they" as a grammatical error. But in other US circles, the use of generic "he" would seem to be both grammatically odd and also deliberately rude, or even be against written corporate style guides. Do you have any concrete suggestions about how a diverse private association could resolve this question in a way that treated everybody with respect? Is there any common ground here, or is this an irreconcilable difference?

Note that I'm not asking about issues of personal rudeness, such as using tu to address a French member who has clearly asked to be referred to as vous. Personally, I would find it to be shockingly impolite to do that to an actual person in an actual conversation, even if the "standard" rules of French would normally suggest the use of tu on Internet forums.

iguanamon wrote:I think some people are forgetting about why we wanted to stay together in the first place. HTLAL was a nice place to be for a reason. There are plenty of forums on the internet to discuss politics, gender issues, etc. Your political opinions and off-topic opinions are important, but I want your help in learning languages. Why can't we talk about languages and language learning here and join other forums to talk about other topics?

Yeah, we needed to have this discussion because we're talking about future plans for the community. But I think we're reaching the point where we need to either:

  1. Focus on concrete rules of polite conduct, with an absolute minimum of politics, or
  2. Give this thread up as hopeless.
Politics is like kudzu in the US (scroll down to section 6 for a picture). It just grows and grows and grows until it completely covers the entire landscape. I think it's time to keep things concrete.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:02 pm

Stelle wrote:I'm going to put in a vote for avoiding politics and religion. Even talking about talking about politics and religion is causing tension! ;)

And great interest. And heightened activity. Let's not forget about those things.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:05 pm

Any topic is good enough for a language learner.
To tell you the truth, I prefer politics to 'Rosetta Stone versus Pimsłeur. '

I read the rules at the old site. They're not clear enough.
Anyway, how to define 'politics' or 'religion'?
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:11 pm

Takra jenai wrote:Any topic is good enough for a language learner.
To tell you the truth, I prefer politics to 'Rosetta Stone versus Pimsłeur. '

I read the rules at the old site. They're not clear enough.
Anyway, how to define 'politics' or 'religion'?


Reza Aslan talks of religion as being a language. Not that I'm goading. I just think he has an interesting perspective that language learners might enjoy hearing. It has nothing to do with the purpose of this particular discussion, admittedly.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby emk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:12 pm

James29 wrote:
SladeWilson wrote:The thing about discussing religion and politics for me is that it is completely voluntary. You don't have to join the discussion. If you can't refrain from getting yourself into subjects that may offend you, I don't know what to tell you.

This is a great point and should be a really important factor in the forum rules. Nobody is forced to read anything here. Everyone is making a voluntary choice to consider the ideas and opinions of other people. If someone chooses to get "offended" by what someone else thinks that should not mean the "offender" is wrong in the way he/she chooses to think.

Note that the moderators do not have the choice to ignore political threads, unfortunately. These threads tend to have a much higher-than-usual level of personal nastiness, which means that we'll often get called in repeatedly. This all comes out of our personal language-learning time, which may seem like a selfish justification, but hopefully everyone here can empathize. :-D

I don't really see why it's necessary to discuss politics on a language learning forum, beyond a few special cases like deciding appropriate conduct. That requires at least a small amount of politics, because as Serpent points out, the difference between "political" and "non-political" can sometimes be a very political question. But aside from that, could we just say, "The Internet is full of political sites. They're almost everywhere. Most of them are cesspools full of people reciting talking points at each other. We don't need another one. Let's keep this particular site for languages."
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby neofight78 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:16 pm

I think this thread is outliving it's usefulness now. Personally, I'm happy for the mods to formulate something as they have the experience to know what works and what will keep the spirit of the forum similar to the old HTLAL. I also trust them to apply any rules sensibly, fairly and flexibly.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:43 pm

emk wrote:Note that the moderators do not have the choice to ignore political threads, unfortunately. These threads tend to have a much higher-than-usual level of personal nastiness, which means that we'll often get called in repeatedly. This all comes out of our personal language-learning time, which may seem like a selfish justification, but hopefully everyone here can empathize. :-D

I wouldn't bring this up had you not expressed concern for your own sanity (and the other mods), but I have all the time in the world to referee discussion of this nature. I also have experience modding a large discussion board (now pretty much defunct) as a mod of one of the most popular forums there, as well as a global mod.

My only question pertains to your strategy of keeping the boards clean. Do you allow a mod enough control to make a judgment call or must every decision be brought to the admins and a judgment coming down from on high? I think the first strategy is more efficient, but I completely understand if the latter is used, thereby barring any possibility. If the first strategy is used, it's still good to report each offense, but maybe in a subforum of the mod forum so as not to distract admins from other issues. But honestly, I don't think a religion and politics forum would garner so much attention that it would be a heavy workload.

I don't really see why it's necessary to discuss politics on a language learning forum, beyond a few special cases like deciding appropriate conduct. That requires at least a small amount of politics, because as Serpent points out, the difference between "political" and "non-political" can sometimes be a very political question. But aside from that, could we just say, "The Internet is full of political sites. They're almost everywhere. Most of them are cesspools full of people reciting talking points at each other. We don't need another one. Let's keep this particular site for languages."

Well, as I said when I first mentioned my position on having a free and open board, I want to get to know people. I'm pretty much a middle-ground type of guy. I have political opinions, I certainly lean left, but I am tolerant even if that means being tolerant of the intolerant.

Someone here said that this is already causing tension. Well yes, but most of us are being civil in expressing our views. This is good. Let's talk!
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 3:53 pm

You know how many people are saying they don't want religion and politics? Let's see if we can foster a good enough forum to make them want to participate. At this point I feel they have volunteered not to. That is their decision, but some of us want to. If we fail to foster a civil forum that has healthy discussion (that includes differences in opinion), then we can pull the plug.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Jul 25, 2015 4:09 pm

So, so far, the rule is, to cite the classic.
Jam tomorrow and jam yesterday,
but no jam today.
That means no politics, no religion, no jokes, no nothing, even in your own personal language log.
I'm mainly interested in politics and religion.
Those are the reasons why I'm learning English and try to learn Pashto.
That's a pity, in a sense, I'm sure my log would be a hit - people do like scandals, even though they're not inclined to admit it.
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