A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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James29
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby James29 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:36 pm

arthaey wrote:
James29 wrote:To me, using "they" instead of "he" or "she" is simply improper English.

Except that singular "they" has quite a log history in English. (A simple google search for "singular they" will bring up many articles with references.)


This is fine. If someone calls me "uneducated", "discriminatory" or a "micro-aggressor" because I have not "unlearned" that part of the language I have a problem with that. Wouldn't you? Do I have some sort of duty to someone else to "unlearn" a part of a language that some people might feel is "offensive"?

Early in my professional career I did sometimes write a singular "they" in professional writings and I was heavily criticized for it being improper English. That is why this example still sticks in my mind.

The point is that for someone else to assume and call me "uneducated", "discriminatory" and a "micro-aggressor" because of this is quite a stretch.

I have very unique political views that I won't get into, but I think gays, transgender, multi-gender and polygamists should all have exactly the same rights as everyone else. In fact, as long as someone's conduct does not result in force, aggression or coercion against some other individual or their property I am ok with it regardless of what they want to do.

My politics are likely quite different than Serpent's, but the end goal on this particular issue is likely the same. I just have a very different idea of the method of obtaining progress.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby emk » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:39 pm

daegga wrote:
1e4e6 wrote:With politics, perhaps a slight amount can be alluded in context of languages, in language logs, since they are a some kind of personal "space" for language learning anyway (although no one really should own any certain space).

This was (unofficially?) accepted even on HTLAL as long as it didn't create heated name-shouting. Writing in your target language about current political affairs in the target country does not really create much arousal anyway. Never gotten into problems with this, and it's not like there is no moderator who would understand my target languages.

This is a good question. I can try to explain how things worked before under the old rules. Sometimes the old rules look inexplicable or arbitrary. It's a bit like Chesterton's fence:

In the matter of reforming things, as distinct from deforming them, there is one plain and simple principle; a principle which will probably be called a paradox. There exists in such a case a certain institution or law; let us say, for the sake of simplicity, a fence or gate erected across a road. The more modern type of reformer goes gaily up to it and says, “I don’t see the use of this; let us clear it away.” To which the more intelligent type of reformer will do well to answer: “If you don’t see the use of it, I certainly won’t let you clear it away. Go away and think. Then, when you can come back and tell me that you do see the use of it, I may allow you to destroy it.

So why were the old rules there? Well, in general, the goal of most of the rules was to enable:

  1. Interesting discussions about language learning,
  2. where everybody treats each other with respect,
  3. and where the moderators don't have to spend a huge effort moderating the forum, because we'd prefer to study languages as much as possible.
Now sometimes, somebody will come up with an interesting new "borderline" case. For example, the rules forbid discussions of religion. But imagine that you're a moderator, and that you see that somebody has started a new log about using the Bible for Listening/Reading. This discussion (1) is interesting, (2) involves nobody treating anybody else with disrespect, and (3) requires zero moderation effort. So if you're in doubt about whether a rule applies in this situation, you can look at the rationale for the rule, and you can say, "You know, nobody ever intended to for this rule to apply in this particular case."

But by definition, any such grey area ultimately involves a personal judgement call by a moderator. In such cases, you can't really claim, "Well, I may have been completely ignoring the spirit of the rules, but I was obeying the letter!" I mean, you can't even go up to a real world judge and say, "The noise ordinance forbids loud music after 10pm, but I was playing ambient industrial soundscapes all night at 120db, and that's not technically music, as such." When the judge is deciding whether or not ambient industrial soundscapes are music, the judge will probably look at the underlying goals of the noise ordinance.

So we've never had a detailed set of rules about logs, specifically. But if you're studying English, and you find an occasional Bill Maher comedy routine that you want to translate or something, you can probably just use your common sense. If you're really concerned, you could also PM a moderator and ask, "Do you think this would cause a lot of problems?" If a lot of people are feeling really uncertain about what's OK and what's not, then there might be some way to clarify the rules without just introducing more complications and doubt.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby iguanamon » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:51 pm

I think some people are forgetting about why we wanted to stay together in the first place. HTLAL was a nice place to be for a reason. There are plenty of forums on the internet to discuss politics, gender issues, etc. Your political opinions and off-topic opinions are important, but I want your help in learning languages. Why can't we talk about languages and language learning here and join other forums to talk about other topics?

Political forums in Spanish
Political forums in French
International political forums in English
Last edited by iguanamon on Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby Bakunin » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:51 pm

This discussion about gender, orientation and transgender etc. is probably quite abstract for some participants. It’s not at all abstract for me - since last year, I’ve been working for a friend of mine who’s shooting a documentary about elderly transgender women in rural Thailand; currently, the cast is two teachers, two businesswomen and one fortune teller, all in their 50’s or 60’s. My role is to translate Thai/Swiss-German during the interviews and also do all other communication. We’re going for a second shooting this November. Language learning can take you to strange places…

Thai is a language with obligatory gender marking in politeness particles - which are ubiquitous - and certain personal pronouns. There are also other gender markers in the language, for instance in front of nicknames, terms of affection and insults. All transgender women I’ve met during this project and in other circumstances express their gender linguistically by using female politeness particles and pronouns. It would be absurd for me to address them as a different gender than the gender they express themselves. These are real people, and they deserve to be treated with respect.

Once you realize you’re dealing with real people, it’s almost impossible to maintain general ideology-based judgements and generalizations. On the internet, however, it’s easy to forget that there are real people on the other side. In order to protect the community here at HTLAL and keep it a welcoming place for everyone interested in language learning, I think we need to keep rules like ‘no politics’ and also apply them to any off-topic threads.
Last edited by Bakunin on Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby James29 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 1:56 pm

rdearman wrote:
Takra jenai wrote:
rdearman wrote:----
Citizens have freedom of speech guaranteed in the USA, but you'll still be arrested if you scream "Fire!" in a crowded movie theater.



This is another wonderful example of jumping to conclusions. You certainly CAN scream "FIRE!" in a crowded movie theater and not get arrested. If I am in the theater with you and there IS a fire I hope you do scream fire as loud as possible.

You are only prevented from doing it if two conditions are met 1) if it is a FALSE statement and 2) if the theater is crowded (because that creates the risk of harm to others).

Here, on the forum, I don't think aggression should be used against posters (deleting/banning/name calling) if there is a legitimate disagreement about the truthfulness of the underlying statement. I also do not think aggression should be used against posters unless there is an objective and obvious risk that harm was intended and likely as a result of the post. That is exactly what the "fire" example was trying to get at.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:03 pm

Would these vids be allowed in my learning log? Just to make sure before I start one.

Transgender
I Am Jazz - A Family In Transition
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Wh6NecfMiE

Politics/religion
Malala Yousafzai Story: The Pakistani Girl Shot in Taliban Attack | The New York Times
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9F5yeW6XFZk
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby James29 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:12 pm

I must say that when I read Iguanamon's posts I get a sense of relief. I also come here to get away from all of the craziness and politics in the world. It stresses me out and studying languages is my way of relaxing. I value very much that the forum has very little politics and religion.

I do not like discussing politics at all. But, I have seen evil things happen that started with well intentioned people who in the name of "progress" resorted to force, aggression and coercion against other people. As such, whenever I see even a hint of such things (even on this forum) I get quite emotional.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:16 pm

James29 wrote:It is the same thing with words like "mankind" and "chairman." I still remember my seventh grade teacher, Mrs. Guthrie, beating into our heads that "human" and "mankind" are English words, but "humankind" is not.

It's kind of iffy because "mankind" is supposed to be a gender neutral term already, that's how it has historically been used. However, people today think of it as a very gender specific word. No one has to agree with "humankind" as the go to alternative but avoiding "mankind" is probably a good idea if you want to stay up to speed with how people understand words.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby SladeWilson » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:36 pm

The thing about discussing religion and politics for me is that it is completely voluntary. You don't have to join the discussion. If you can't refrain from getting yourself into subjects that may offend you, I don't know what to tell you.
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Re: A forum conduct discussion (split from Re: HTLAL might be gone)

Postby James29 » Sat Jul 25, 2015 2:44 pm

SladeWilson wrote:The thing about discussing religion and politics for me is that it is completely voluntary. You don't have to join the discussion. If you can't refrain from getting yourself into subjects that may offend you, I don't know what to tell you.


This is a great point and should be a really important factor in the forum rules. Nobody is forced to read anything here. Everyone is making a voluntary choice to consider the ideas and opinions of other people. If someone chooses to get "offended" by what someone else thinks that should not mean the "offender" is wrong in the way he/she chooses to think.
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