Languages are now in the sidebar

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Luso
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby Luso » Wed Aug 12, 2015 12:50 pm

emk wrote:So here's my counter-proposal: The next time I install phpBB extensions, I take a look at the Unilang language database extension, and I see if that will get us flag emoticon support. And if somebody wants to find or write an extension which adds flags for users' countries, I'd happily look into installing that.


Thanks. In fact, all I wanted was to get the idea looked into.

From my experience in HTLAL, people will not object to the use of a flag to illustrate the (approximate) geographical origin of a given language. In good faith, there is. But I suppose you must cover as many bases as possible. I accept that.

EDIT: @basica: Spot on, mate. My thoughts exactly. But I don't want to start a debate over this matter.
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby emk » Wed Aug 12, 2015 2:47 pm

basica wrote:I've been lurking unilang for quite a while and I don't think I've ever really seen much fuss over the flags and people there tend to be very interested in languages that could cause some sort of stir concerning the flags (i.e. catalan seems to be really popular). As a sort of general comment, I hope we don't let fear rule us from trying out new things - not that I am saying that this is happening, just I think that anything can have a potential downside and I don't want us to let the possibility of that cause us to rule things outright.

Well, let's see if I can explain my reaction a little bit more.

When it comes to software, I tend to be a tidy and logical person. I don't mind maintaining big, messy databases as long as there's a "correct" answer, or at least an official one. So if you want to talk about language codes, I'm happy to geek out about the differences between the ISO 639-1, ISO 639-2 and ISO 639-3 standards, and talk about the best way to handle dead languages, and so on. There are actual international standards committees that work out all the messy details and hammer out a compromise. Similarly, I like Unicode—it's imperfect, but if it doesn't include your local script or a letter in your name, there's a process to get it fixed, and then everybody just goes ahead and supports Unicode everywhere.

But I really just don't want to be responsible for maintaining any kind of "official" flag <-> language mapping for the forum. That just sounds like a lot of ongoing work, and a bunch of arbitrary (and occasionally unpopular) decisions, and I personally think it looks like a big hassle, and I just don't wanna. :-)

Now, I'm happy to consider installing the profile BBCode extension, that would allow you to use emoticons in your profile fields, and also a flag emoticons extension (if we can use Unilang's, for example). That way, people could do whatever they wanted with flags, including using them next to the languages in their profile, without rdearman and/or the moderators having to take responsibility for making arbitrary decisions.

Personally, I'd be happy to use a French flag in my mini-profile, because I mostly speak Parisian(ish) French. On the other hand, I'm mostly interested in Mexican Spanish, so I could use a Mexican flag and not a Spanish one. Similarly, people could choose a Taiwanese or Chinese flag if they wanted. Or they could use both the national flags if they wanted, if they studied more than one national dialect.

But I really don't want the responsibility for deciding whether the forum as a whole should use a Taiwanese or Chinese flag for Mandarin. It's a silly and illogical question in the first place, and the answer is extremely political. If individual posters can make that decision on their own, the whole issue goes away.

(Of course, this all depends on finding a half-way decent extension for national flag emoticons.)
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby Arnaud » Wed Aug 12, 2015 3:48 pm

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Last edited by Arnaud on Tue Sep 13, 2016 5:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby Luso » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:03 pm

emk wrote:Now, I'm happy to consider installing the profile BBCode extension, that would allow you to use emoticons in your profile fields, and also a flag emoticons extension (if we can use Unilang's, for example). That way, people could do whatever they wanted with flags, including using them next to the languages in their profile, without rdearman and/or the moderators having to take responsibility for making arbitrary decisions.

Yes, please!

Regarding common sense and responsibility, a small story: I learn Sanskrit. The symbol normally used to denote that language is not popular in the West since 1933-45. Yes, that symbol. The name of that symbol (yes, that word) is also a Sanskrit word, and also not popular in the West.

Although both the symbol and the word are considered as bearers of good fortune to a billion+ people, I decided not to use them in a milissecond.

I wish all the decisions were that easy... :)
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby emk » Wed Aug 12, 2015 4:24 pm

emk wrote:Now, I'm happy to consider installing the profile BBCode extension,

Argh! This is a phpBB 3.0 module, not a phpBB 3.1 extension. Back to the drawing board—I need to find some way to get BBCode to work in the mini-profiles.
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby Serpent » Sat Aug 15, 2015 9:52 pm

I posted my suggestion in the wrong place...

If that's overkill then maybe a Corrections wanted: field at least? And Native: perhaps.
It would also be nice to have a higher character limit, as I said :mrgreen:
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby pir » Sun Aug 16, 2015 5:29 am

A few thoughts:

Information is good, but there's got to be a balance with available real estate. The information for each person already takes up a lot of space on the side, and I tend to get mildly annoyed if I have to scroll past a lot of white space at the bottom of posts. I am a lot more interested in what people have to say than in their static information -- if I want to see the latter, a simple click brings me to their profile where a lot more stuff could be listed. So I do think Serpent's suggestion is overkill -- really interesting overkill, I'm curious about all of that, but I'd prefer it elsewhere.

I'd definitely like to see a "Corrections wanted yes/no" field though, because that is relevant for each post. Other than that, whatever people want to show about their language pursuits is fine by me, and I kinda like the free form it's in right now, it feels more personal. Upping the character limit a bit would be nice; maybe. I had to chop a bit to get stuff to fit and had to leave out dabbling, and there are people here who have a lot more to show. But I could actually squish it down by using ISO codes, though they're a bit harder to read. Just don't make it huge.

If you end up with a "native" field, please allow room for more than one language in it.

Flags are cute, but carry a lot of baggage which has already been pointed out by others. Being Canadian, I don't want to touch this with a barge pole, and I can live without cute. Flags would save space, but so would ISO codes. And I can read words a lot faster than I can figure out flags for more obscure countries. So, yeah, not in favour of flags at all.
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby Serpent » Mon Aug 17, 2015 4:54 pm

The idea was actually that most would use only 2-3 types of boxes in addition to the native language. I might need a bit more, but still far from all :lol: and this would keep longer lists readable.
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby arthaey » Mon Aug 17, 2015 5:49 pm

emk wrote:Argh! This is a phpBB 3.0 module, not a phpBB 3.1 extension. Back to the drawing board—I need to find some way to get BBCode to work in the mini-profiles.

I know that there exists a guide for porting the old 3.0 modules to new 3.1 extensions, but I haven't dug into it yet. Has anyone else? How onerous is it?
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Re: Languages are now in the sidebar

Postby tommus » Mon Aug 17, 2015 7:59 pm

It seems to me that the size of the sidebars is getting quite excessive. For those who have a long story to tell about all their languages, I think their profile is the place to put it.

The sidebar should be the place to put your location, you native language, your other advanced languages, and the main languages you are studying. The purpose of the sidebar is so that other users can confirm your native language and the languages where you can offer solid advice, and to see your main L2 interests.

I don't think the sidebar is a place to brag about all your many, many languages, and the degree to which you think you have mastered them.

So I'd prefer to see Native, Advanced, Main Learning, and a line that says 12 More (or whatever). People could check your profile for the details. Otherwise, the forum is looking more like a database of people's languages rather than a forum of people's comments.
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