HTLAL might be gone

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
Takra jenai
x 7658

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:28 pm

Bakunin's log is not boring.
'Simple google searches' are often not so simple at all.

A forum is a meeting point and that's a very good thing about it.
You can sometimes find some wierd links too.
Last edited by Takra jenai on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x

User avatar
Polyclod
Yellow Belt
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:46 pm
Location: Texas
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Spanish, French, German (Intermediate)
Learning: Russian
Hit List: Brazilian Portuguese, Japanese
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1181
x 188

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Polyclod » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:31 pm

lone wolf wrote: What are we heading for? Maybe I don't really want to know.


If you want to see what we're headed for, have a peek at pretty much any Tumblr blog. Actually for your own sanity, don't.

Basically we'll have a board of SJWs sanitizing the forum of anything which could be remotely considered offensive to anyone, anywhere.

I'm all for keeping things civil. I wouldn't want a language learning forum to turn into a place for people to attack others based on their race or sexuality. But we've moved from trying to promote civility and respect to a culture of crybabies who are constantly looking for something to find offensive.

I do not understand this concept that people have an inherent right to go through their lives without being offended by something.

/rant off
13 x
Bücher:

Star Trek The Next Generation Tod im Winter: 82 / 348

Русский

Assimil Russian: 30 / 100

User avatar
iguanamon
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2354
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 11:14 am
Location: Virgin Islands
Languages: Speaks: English (Native); Spanish (C2); Portuguese (C2); Haitian Creole (C1); Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol (C1); Lesser Antilles French Creole (B2)
Studies: Catalan
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=797
x 14196

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby iguanamon » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:31 pm

I generally try to answer newbies questions afresh. I may give the same answer repeatedly, but I don't copy and paste. After five years on HTLAL, I do try to limit my responses to people I think I can genuinely help and who appear sincere. I won't answer the ubiquitous "which language should I learn?" post or "how do I use anki? " since I don't use it. One of the good things about HTLAL was that a new learner could post a question and generally get a fresh response from multiple members.

As far as politics and more "free discussion" go, not so long a time ago in society there was a notion that people called "civility" . Civility Definition by Merriam Webster
Merriam Webster Dictionary wrote:Civility:
2 a : civilized conduct; especially : courtesy, politeness
b : a polite act or expression


This seems to have fallen by the wayside to a large extent in the anonymous world of the internet. Add in the fact that when we are writing it is often difficult to imbue one's writing with the necessary inflections, emphasis and de-emphasis that we can in speech. This is why satire and sarcasm can come across in ways that are not intended.

I think the forum can remain useful but not as a one-stop shop. We need a front door. We need a foyer where people who may find us by a google search will come to first. There they can read member written articles. Discover courses and methods that they didn't know existed. They can read more detail about actually learning the most common languages than they can find on wikipedia or other sites. They can read success stories of people who speak multiple languages who were once exactly like them. Then, maybe, maybe, they might be inspired to take part in the forum, start a "boring" log and get the help they need to actually learn their language in near real-time. That's the value of the forum. That and being assured that if I ask a question about learning Mongolian, I will get an intelligent answer from someone.

The problem with old HTLAL was it just wasn't keeping up with the times. The lurkers who suddenly appeared out of the ether when the old site went down proves that. If we wow them with a great entry to the site, give them some curb appeal, we can stay relevant by doing what we've always done best- help people to learn a language- not talking about politics, religion and slamming people. Civility plus relevancy equals life to this forum and associated site for years to come. The relevancy comes from being up to date on language-learning, the civility keeps people here because it's pleasant. They aren't going to be attacked, put down or insulted. They won't have their religion, sexual orientation, country or ethnicity insulted either. This means a lot.
Last edited by iguanamon on Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:43 pm, edited 4 times in total.
12 x

User avatar
lone wolf
White Belt
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:06 pm
Languages: Native: German
Fluent: English, French
Studied: Swedish, Russian
Learning: Hungarian, Latin
x 35

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby lone wolf » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:40 pm

Via Diva wrote:
lone wolf wrote:utterly boring language logs

Just out of curiosity, which language logs are boring and which are not? I can answer that question for myself, but if there would be some common concept it can help us loggers to write them better.


The concept of a log basically is about a monologue. There are some interactions, but it is always about the thread owner. If someone comes in with a different point of view about something, this can get on the thread owner's nerves. And this is fine in my books, since if you start a detailed discussion there, it will disturb the flow of the log, and many people will miss the discussion who do not read this particular log. Once I had my own sort of log on the old forum (under a different user name than here) and it did encourage some comments:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22927&PN=55

For the most part it was a monologue, though. This cannot be a replacement for engaging discussions.
0 x

User avatar
Via Diva
Green Belt
Posts: 262
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:11 pm
Location: somewhere around Moscow
Languages: Russian (N), English (~C1), German (~B1)
Wanderlust/abandoned: Czech, Swedish, Italian, Modern Greek, Esperanto, French, Dutch, Finnish
Hit-list (?): Icelandic, Hungarian, Sanskrit
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=929
x 412
Contact:

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Via Diva » Sat Aug 01, 2015 12:47 pm

lone wolf wrote:The concept of a log basically is about a monologue.

This doesn't answer the question about what's boring and what is not, though. Some logs might be full of interaction and be interesting precisely because interesting things are discussed and different POVs are presented. If the discussion grows too long it can always be continued in a separate thread.
Also the lack of feedback can be discouraging for some.
1 x

User avatar
neofight78
Blue Belt
Posts: 539
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 8:02 pm
Location: Novosibirsk, Russia
Languages: English (N), Russian (B2+), Spanish (A0)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=833
x 1232

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby neofight78 » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:17 pm

Good debate is about interesting ideas and logical arguments. Ad hominem arguments, i.e. insulting people, is just not only disrespectful, it's poor reasoning too. I do not think insults and personal attacks add anything. What they can do is put people off participating. Sure some people like a no holds barred flamefest, but it lowers the standard of the debate and limits participation.

So far I've not seen heavy handed moderation here, and being respectful of others is not about enforcing political correctness, it's about building a welcoming and inclusive community. At the same time it ensures higher quality debate. Let's raise the quality of our contributions, and not descend into a slanging match.

Regarding language logs, as someone who has just started one, I'm also interested to know what others like to read. Personally, from my log, I am hoping for some solidarity in the face of what is a very difficult task and an exchange of resources and approaches etc. I will see how it progresses...

More generally I don't think we need to worry too much about the direction of the forum. Debate will naturally move on and that's ok, as long as we are still welcoming to those newcomers for whom it's not old hat. I do support the idea of fleshing out the site a bit more. I'm not quite sure of the status of the existing wiki, but I definitely think as a community we could create some useful resources which would be more accessible than just an archive of posts, and I think would relieve some of the concern about leaving the old HTLAL behind or repeating the same problem here.
3 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2528
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: California, Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - German (B2/C1) on/off study: Persian, Hebrew, Tibetan, Setswana.
Some knowledge of Italian, Portuguese, Ladino, Yiddish ...
Want to tackle Tzotzil, Nahuatl
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=859
x 7030
Contact:

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby zenmonkey » Sat Aug 01, 2015 1:58 pm

Via Diva wrote:
lone wolf wrote:The concept of a log basically is about a monologue.

This doesn't answer the question about what's boring and what is not, though. Some logs might be full of interaction and be interesting precisely because interesting things are discussed and different POVs are presented. If the discussion grows too long it can always be continued in a separate thread.
Also the lack of feedback can be discouraging for some.


For a while my personal language learning log was a series of shorthand posts about hrs spent, lessons covered, objectives and steps. It was on wrodpress blog without comments enabled and it was entirely intended as a reminded guide for myself - I wrote it there because it was easy place and accessible across machines and travel. It was absolutely and totally boring. With little to no thought about the subject of learning.

So I can understand how some log content can be boring - when it is tactical list of things executed without thought to process or methods, without injecting the life of what goes on outside of the study method, without the life of challenges to learning and what might ring true and empathic with a potential reader.

Today, I try for a mix - my logs might be very tactical at times and just a discussion at others. And likely, anyone's measured log about the complexities of a language one isn't interested in is going to be a bit more boring than a good old heated discussion on the most efficient learning method or why so-and-so-internet-personality is full of cow-mulch when presenting their favourite language as the root of it all. I'd guess that is what lone wolf is talking about.

Debate can be fun in and of itself and valued as such. However, and I enjoy debate very much, I don't come here to be treated with any incivility and try to keep my voice here to reflect that. One of the old language forums I participated in a long time ago died from the "free for all" attitude that degenerated into not debate but too much low-level insults.

I look forward to see how this place finds balance, I like what I've seen so far.
3 x
I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar

User avatar
aloysius
White Belt
Posts: 35
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 8:49 pm
Location: Stockholm
Languages: Swedish (N), English, German.
Studying: French, Russian, Italian, Spanish.
x 43

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby aloysius » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:01 pm

lone wolf wrote: Once I had my own sort of log on the old forum (under a different user name than here) and it did encourage some comments:

http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=22927&PN=55


That was a true gem of a log! One of my all time favourites, actually.
2 x

User avatar
lone wolf
White Belt
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 2:06 pm
Languages: Native: German
Fluent: English, French
Studied: Swedish, Russian
Learning: Hungarian, Latin
x 35

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby lone wolf » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:06 pm

Thanks, I hadn't expected that anyone would remember me, since I had only about 250 posts.
0 x

Takra jenai
x 7658

Re: HTLAL might be gone

Postby Takra jenai » Sat Aug 01, 2015 2:15 pm

For a while I was playing with the idea of starting my own learning log. My motivation was utterly selfish, I just wanted people to correct my English. But since politics and religion are not allowed, I had to give it up.

I had a look at some logs at the old forum.
Solfrid Cristin seems interesting, not because of the way she learns, but because of what she writes.
1 x


Return to “LLORG & HTLAL discussion area”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests