Using the forum for a personal research paper

Discuss the HTLAL forum's past and its future
Rhian
Blue Belt
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Jul 03, 2015 7:41 pm
x 576

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Rhian » Sat Nov 26, 2016 1:01 am

Jiwon wrote:
Rhian wrote:Do let us know how it goes Jiwon!


Thank you Rhian! I hope this means I can use your posts?

By the way, I was just going through old threads and PMs at HTLAL and reminiscing those days when we were new moderators.. :) old fond memories...


Yes you can as long as you aren't using my name (I see previously you said you wouldn't). Best of luck!
0 x

User avatar
Iversen
Brown Belt
Posts: 1410
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian,
Ahem, not yet: Esperanto, Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Indonesian ...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 2712

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Iversen » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:00 pm

You are welcome to use anything I have written at either forum since I didn't expect it to be kept secret anyway, and you can also translate it into Korean if you want to, but in the case of HTLAL you may have to avoid long verbatim quotes since that would violate the terms formulated by FX (and valid within the limits stipulated by the Berne convention). One detail: personally I would prefer being called by my avatar name rather than A or Z, but opinions may be divided on that question.
0 x

User avatar
aokoye
Brown Belt
Posts: 1267
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (beginner), French (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2935
x 1980
Contact:

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby aokoye » Sat Nov 26, 2016 6:09 pm

Iversen wrote:You are welcome to use anything I have written at either forum since I didn't expect it to be kept secret anyway, and you can also translate it into Korean if you want to, but in the case of HTLAL you may have to avoid long verbatim quotes since that would violate the terms formulated by FX (and valid within the limits stipulated by the Berne convention). One detail: personally I would prefer being called by my avatar name rather than A or Z, but opinions may be divided on that question.


I sadly don't have the time right now to search but I feel like given the nature of academic papers/articles/texts assuming everything was cited correctly and there weren't very large chunks of text taken the Berne convention wouldn't actually be an issue. In terms of your avatar name, that wouldn't actually be appropriate given that it's significantly more important to anonymize the data and using your avatar name would not be doing that.

I'll do a more thorough search of the Berne convention and how it applies to academia this evening.
2 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

Tomás
Blue Belt
Posts: 554
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:48 pm
Languages: English (N). Currently studying Spanish (intermediate), French (false beginner).
x 636

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Tomás » Sat Nov 26, 2016 11:06 pm

When people publish to an open forum, so long as you abide by copyright law there is no obligation to ask their permission to quote them or to describe their behavior. It is simply not required under US law. Korea may be different.
1 x

User avatar
aokoye
Brown Belt
Posts: 1267
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (beginner), French (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2935
x 1980
Contact:

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby aokoye » Sun Nov 27, 2016 1:30 am

I'm almost positive the Berne Convention doesn't apply to this at all. From Cornell University's Legal Institute:
The expression "literary and artistic works" shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramatico-musical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.


I'm pretty sure forum posts about people's opinions on HTLAL and this new iteration wouldn't be in the literary domain. They also aren't in the scientific or artistic domain.

Moreover - about fair use:
It shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries.
2 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
Iversen
Brown Belt
Posts: 1410
Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
Location: Denmark
Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian,
Ahem, not yet: Esperanto, Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Indonesian ...
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
x 2712

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Iversen » Sun Nov 27, 2016 10:05 am

I'm not a lawyer, and it is some times since I delved deeper into the original text of the Berne convention, but I did a search on "Berne convention" scientific, and the texts it found seem to agree that scientific works are included. Like this passage from the convention text, which I found at Wikiquote:

The expression “literary and artistic works” shall include every production in the literary, scientific and artistic domain, whatever may be the mode or form of its expression, such as books, pamphlets and other writings; lectures, addresses, sermons and other works of the same nature; dramatic or dramaticomusical works; choreographic works and entertainments in dumb show; musical compositions with or without words; cinematographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to cinematography; works of drawing, painting, architecture, sculpture, engraving and lithography; photographic works to which are assimilated works expressed by a process analogous to photography; works of applied art; illustrations, maps, plans, sketches and three-dimensional works relative to geography, topography, architecture or science.
(also quoted by Aykoye)

So roughly speaking in all countries that adhere to this convention it would be allowed to quote a wide variety of texts according to the same rules that apply to literature. There are special rules concerning news and some types of juridical documents, but forum messages are not expressly excepted from the general formulation above. The problem is only whether messages that are published online are covered by this old and dusty convention at all - after all it was written long before the internet was born, and even though it has been revised in 1908 and 1928 (ie. 'The ROme convention') to take heed of Rapidly advancing technology during the early 20th century (...) such as sound recordings, photography, and cinematic developments (...) these amendments also took place long before the advent of the internet. The changes did however cover things like radio transmissions.

It should be mentioned here that even FX didn't demand the full transmission of authors' right to him to material published at HTLAL - he did however claim the right to make copies himself or permit (or not permit) copy taking by others as it pleased him (which apparently never has happened). So basically people who published anything at HTLAL or here still have their authors' rights, but they have to some extent relinquished the control over the spreading of their formulations.

And what is then allowed (without express permission)? Well, this is covered by the term "fair practice":

"it shall be permissible to make quotations from a work which has already been lawfully made available to the public, provided that their making is compatible with fair practice, and their extent does not exceed that justified by the purpose, including quotations from newspaper articles and periodicals in the form of press summaries". (my bold, same source)

The main problem here is to determine what "fair practice" really means, but length and relevancy would obviously be relevant factors. So basically when it comes to copying whole works the Berne Convention is there to protect the copyright owners, but on the other hand it does permit quotes within "fair practice". Since this forum is (juridically and physically) hosted in the United Kingdom and HTLAL in Switzerland it would be tempting to assume that it was the juridical formulations of either country that governed the rules concerning quotes (Wikipedia has an article about the British rules), but quotes in a research paper produced in South Korea might also be subject to South Korean law - I simply don't know the answer to that question, but maybe somebody has found it somewhere.

As for the names of the copyright holders quoted the convention actually gives them the right to be mentioned by name (cfr. par. 10.3), but when it comes to discussing communication patterns in general in a scientific treatise (rather than opinions) I can see the point in anonymizing the quotes. It is however a juridical grey zone.
1 x

User avatar
aokoye
Brown Belt
Posts: 1267
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 6:14 pm
Location: Portland, OR
Languages: English (N), German (~C1), Swedish (beginner), Dutch (beginner), French (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2935
x 1980
Contact:

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby aokoye » Sun Nov 27, 2016 3:40 pm

Honestly I think way too much is being made of this. Academic works quote directly from other works on a pretty frequent basis, what's important is that the quotations are of the correct length (not too long) and that they are cited correctly which is going to be different depending on what style guide you're using (APA, MLA, etc). Plagiarism is the issue at hand and while it's very important, there are more resources than one could count to help people make sure that they aren't plagiarizing.
1 x
Prefered gender pronouns: Masculine

User avatar
Jiwon
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:41 pm
Location: Seoul
Languages: Korean (native)
English (secondary native)
German (C1)
Hindi (intermediate)

passable: Mandarin, Japanese
x 141

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Jiwon » Sun Nov 27, 2016 5:24 pm

Guys thank you so much for your encouragements and actually putting all that time to look up all the legal complexities for me. :)

I played in a concert yesterday (26th November), and spent the whole of today looking up former research papers on online interactions and communities. Now I have an outline for the whole paper. I even have a working title for it - it translates to something like: "Preserving the Space on the Internet: a Case Study of an Online Migration." Yes, I know it is a very boring title for research on an exciting forum like this, and I will change it when I get a better idea. It will be about the importance of physical space and social place for the online language learning community, and is a part of the bigger argument that online interactions are neither a substitute for offline interactions, nor are they the polar opposite. Rather, the internet provides a complementary ground for a spectrum of organized interactions, some of which can be very similar to our offline communities, always interacting with the physical and social environment in which it is situated.
4 x
कहाँ -
मेरा अधिवास कहाँ?

User avatar
Jiwon
Yellow Belt
Posts: 73
Joined: Mon Oct 24, 2016 5:41 pm
Location: Seoul
Languages: Korean (native)
English (secondary native)
German (C1)
Hindi (intermediate)

passable: Mandarin, Japanese
x 141

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Jiwon » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:07 pm

I just finished reading up all the threads from 2015 that discussed directions for HTLAL. I feel like I am writing a PhD paper in HTLAL-ology, not a 15-page paper in sociology.

I have started writing up my paper in bullet points, bilingually (in both Korean and English, as sometimes the "right word" in either language won't pop up immediately). Then tomorrow I will write them out in actual sentences, and I can spend the Wednesday afternoon on references and formatting. It's a very ambitious plan, but I think I barely make it work.

Thank you guys. I will post the English abstract of my paper here after Wednesday.
1 x
कहाँ -
मेरा अधिवास कहाँ?

User avatar
Ogrim
Blue Belt
Posts: 537
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B1) Arabic (studying), (Modern) Greek (studying)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 1487

Re: Using the forum for a personal research paper

Postby Ogrim » Mon Nov 28, 2016 2:21 pm

I am late to this, but just wanted you to know that you are welcome to quote any of my posts in your research paper.
3 x


Return to “HTLAL discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest