Notification of forum rules' changes?

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Ingaræð
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Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby Ingaræð » Mon Mar 08, 2021 1:38 am

I recently had a re-read of the forum rules, and noticed that there has been an amendment stating that 'deleting-editing' posts will result in an automatic ban. I don't know when this change was made (there is no 'Last edited' at the bottom of the post), but as rdearman stated in May 2020 that deleting posts did not result in an automatic ban, I assume it occurred at some point after that. I believe other changes may have been made to the rules since I first read them at sign-up.

I have looked, but cannot find anything in the forum that indicates when the forum rules were amended in this (or any other) way. When they are amended, I think it is only fair that all members are notified of this, just as other sites notify about changes to 'Terms and Conditions'.

I don't know much about the software the forum is running on, and therefore whether the Notification system in the top panel could be used to do this. As a minimum, it is at least possible to create a forum thread which details the amendment(s) made and 'sticky' it for a reasonable period of time.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby rdearman » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:18 am

They were made sticky for a couple of days. Dont remember the exact date of the change.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby Ingaræð » Mon Mar 08, 2021 2:35 am

I'm not sure that a couple of days is long enough for even all of the frequently active members to see that. Did it state at the time that the rules had been amended?

Is using the Notification system possible?
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby lusan » Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:02 am

Ingaræð wrote:I recently had a re-read of the forum rules, and noticed that there has been an amendment stating that 'deleting-editing' posts will result in an automatic ban.


Does it mean that if I made either grammatical changes -after posting- or some other trivial things I would be gone?
A little far out rule, I think.

From where this rule comes from? New to me.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby rdearman » Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:57 am

lusan wrote:
Ingaræð wrote:I recently had a re-read of the forum rules, and noticed that there has been an amendment stating that 'deleting-editing' posts will result in an automatic ban.


Does it mean that if I made either grammatical changes -after posting- or some other trivial things I would be gone?
A little far out rule, I think.

From where this rule comes from? New to me.

No, this rule applies to people who for example start a thread, then there is a long discussion, and then they go and replace all their posts with nothing. This completely ruins the continuity of the thread and readers who come along after are confused about replies to nothing. It isn't about modification or clarification of a thread, this is just destruction.

As the admin I only have two ways to fix this problem. The first is the nuclear option, where I simply overwrite the database with the last snapshot. However, this snapshot could be 24/48 hours prior, which means any new user in that time period will be lost, any post made by anyone will be lost. The other option is to restore the database to a different instance (which I have to pay for) then spend a couple of hours writing the SQL to extract the deleted messages and restore them individually. Then the person returns and deletes it again, and the process would have to start over, with either people losing posts, or me losing hours of my time.

So this rule is basically if you do something like that then step one is to ban you, so you can't continue to bugger up the database, then if I want to waste a couple of hours of my life then I'll restore the messages.

Ingaræð wrote:I'm not sure that a couple of days is long enough for even all of the frequently active members to see that. Did it state at the time that the rules had been amended?

Is using the Notification system possible?

The notification system is broken because we can't get the email server working with this version of phpBB, and it needs some downtime to fix the issue. This is the same problem people have with lost passwords, the email never gets to them.

The rules change and people should keep an eye on the changes. There are also additions to the Rules and FAQ area, and we don't always make global announcements.

Also let me clarify that you can use the delete button to delete your posts and there isn't any problem with that. You can also request moderators to delete posts for you, or you can even request an entire thread to be removed. You can even request your account be removed and all your posts.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby Doodah » Mon Mar 08, 2021 7:41 am

rdearman wrote:No, this rule applies to people who for example start a thread, then there is a long discussion, and then they go and replace all their posts with nothing. This completely ruins the continuity of the thread and readers who come along after are confused about replies to nothing. It isn't about modification or clarification of a thread, this is just destruction.


rdearman wrote:You can even request your account be removed and all your posts.


What's the difference between the outcomes of these two? Either way all your posts are gone. So why is one allowed but not the other?
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby rdearman » Mon Mar 08, 2021 11:06 am

Doodah wrote:
rdearman wrote:No, this rule applies to people who for example start a thread, then there is a long discussion, and then they go and replace all their posts with nothing. This completely ruins the continuity of the thread and readers who come along after are confused about replies to nothing. It isn't about modification or clarification of a thread, this is just destruction.


rdearman wrote:You can even request your account be removed and all your posts.


What's the difference between the outcomes of these two? Either way all your posts are gone. So why is one allowed but not the other?

Because one method allows the moderators to discuss with them the possibly of keeping some posts which might be helpful to others. Or gives an opportunity for a simple recovery afterwards if they decide they made a mistake and wanted the posts back.

EDIT: One other difference is that if an Administrator deletes the post it is gone forever and cannot be recovered. If you do it it can be recovered. So if you really wanted it deleted, get the moderation team to do it for you.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby Ingaræð » Mon Mar 08, 2021 3:54 pm

rdearman wrote:The notification system is broken because we can't get the email server working with this version of phpBB, and it needs some downtime to fix the issue.


I know that the email system is not functioning, I'm talking about the notification icon/dropdown at the top-right of the site pages when logged in. For example, I've still received a notification that you've quoted me. I would argue that for rule changes, having an on-site notification is more appropriate than via an email.

The rules change and people should keep an eye on the changes. There are also additions to the Rules and FAQ area, and we don't always make global announcements.


And from your post Clarification on process for post deletion (I thought it best to keep this in one thread):

rdearman wrote:I would also like to add that all the rules are there to keep things running smoothly. They are a bit like the rules at a gym which tell you to wipe down the equipment after you use it, and put the weights back into the correct rack after you're done. These things mean the other gym members can enjoy their time at the gym without laying down on a sweaty bench or searching around trying to find the 15 kilo weights. It also means the gym doesn't need to have staff members walking about cleaning up.

I try to highlight any changes to the rules and to give people time to read them, but you should read the rules periodically yourself to make sure you didn't miss an update.


There is nothing in any of the posts in the Forum Rules and FAQs forum that indicates any of them have ever been altered since originally posted. I cited the 'deletion-editing' change both because I know from memory that that is an addition, and I can very roughly date it based on a comment you made in another thread.

Asking members to periodically read the forum rules is not unreasonable. Expecting members to remember to do this and fully discern (from memory) any changes made (and when) - despite no actual indication that they even have - is, in my opinion, both unreasonable and unrealistic. Why can't a global announcement be made every time rather than only sometimes? When moderators proactively inform members of changes, members can ensure they follow the rules as well as alert mods to any potentially rule-breaking post content. I have yet to see a gym that does not proactively inform its customers of rule changes.

Ignorantia juris non excusat


Maybe, but isn't this a friendly internet discussion forum, not a court of law upholding a thousand years' worth of laws on serious criminal offences?
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby rdearman » Mon Mar 08, 2021 4:45 pm

The notification system you're talking about is system generated, I can't publish to it. We do try to make sure everyone is informed, but we are also human and sometimes people forget, or don't leave the post up long enough, etc. I promise to try harder, but realistically the system doesn't have anyway to force everyone to read something at login, so I'm stuck with the tools I have and my own human faults.
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Re: Notification of forum rules' changes?

Postby Skynet » Mon Mar 08, 2021 6:18 pm

rdearman wrote:Because one method allows the moderators to discuss with them the possibly of keeping some posts which might be helpful to others. Or gives an opportunity for a simple recovery afterwards if they decide they made a mistake and wanted the posts back.

EDIT: One other difference is that if an Administrator deletes the post it is gone forever and cannot be recovered. If you do it it can be recovered. So if you really wanted it deleted, get the moderation team to do it for you.


What if people no longer want to keep any data to help others in the future? Should they be banned because they want to get rid of their data without the intervention of the mods? I understand that Rick is technically not in the EU anymore, but what of people who are under the aegis of the EU's GDPR?
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