Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby MorkTheFiddle » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:52 pm

No doubt Speakeasy contributed much to this forum. But Cavesa has contributed at least as much. Putting myself in her shoes and in the shoes of the mods and admin, and knowing next to nothing about the details of the banishment, I take Cavesa's side in this. That's all I have to say.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby lusan » Sat Mar 06, 2021 9:50 pm

iguanamon wrote:We have had members who were once banned, return and become good members of the forum. It would be up to speakeasy himself, to ask to come back. He would have to behave as far as decorum goes here. We all talk about free speech here, but this is a private, non-profit, forum. We talk about languages and language-learning. Politics has no place here. Neither does religious advocacy. There is no need for ad-hominem attacks. There are ways to discuss one's disagreement with opinions expressed here without attacking the person who has expressed them.

Nobody here has the answer to language-learning for everyone... no matter how accomplished they may be. We can advocate for our positions, even passionately, but we must all agree that "while a horse can be led to water, the horse cannot be forced to drink it". Tolerance is a quality we must all incorporate. We need to think twice, then think again before posting a response to someone with whom we disagree- "Can I say this in a less condescending way?" Better yet, "Can I say this without being condescending at all?".

If someone comes on the forum and declares they can learn a language by memorizing 25,000 words of vocabulary and 10,000 sentences all on anki, we may think that the method is not realistic or practical and we can express that, but there's no reason to attack the person for that statement. We can "disagree, without being disagreable".

The moderators have a thankless job. For the most part, they keep the forum humming. They keep us away from spam, bots, trolls and other unpleasantness. Every time someone suggests "we are adults here, we should be able to discuss all topics in an intelligent and adult way", we forget that the very reason this forum is a pleasant place to be is because there are rules in place that are enforced to keep it that way.

That being said, I, for one (despite the fact that I, myself, have been a target of his wrath on one occasion) would like to see speakeasy return... provided that he can abide by the rules and "play nice with others". He has made many valuable contributions to the community. Granted, he took some of those away (resource threads) in a fit of vengeance just before he was banned. It doesn't really matter. The resource threads while valuable... are/were not critical. What makes them truly valuable is when there is description and elaboration beyond just a link Speakeasy has been out of the forum for around a year. Perhaps he has learned his lesson by now. It's up to speakeasy himself to ask to return and the moderators to decide whether or not they would find his return acceptable. People can change and, if they don't, then they shouldn't return.


All this is so sad... :(
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby IronMike » Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:29 am

I'm for him coming back. Please.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby aokoye » Sun Mar 07, 2021 1:33 am

I have been talked about with ill will by Speakeasy on a number of occasions and would prefer that not to happen again. I also don't want to see the same happen to others. It is was not pretty and it made using the forum unenjoyable at best off and on for years. Heck I'm pretty sure he's PM'd me harassing comments at times (it's been a while). The mods have made their decision and that decision should stay with them. If he wants to contact the mods and ask to come back then he's free to do so, but it's ultimately not up to us to decide what should or shouldn't happen.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby ashipinthenight » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:41 am

Long time lurker in both forums.

Is extreme behaviour of a user that is detrimental to the enjoyment and contributions of other (lesser?) users acceptable because of the contribution of the user with extreme behaviour. It's a situation that managers of all types have to deal with in real life as well as online.

I suspect that Speakeasy crossed the line on multiple occasions before the ban was implemented. I gather the mods would have accepted a greater degree of extreme behaviour before banning just because "it's Speakeasy" and his contributions over the years.

If Speakeasy hasn't sought reinstatement himself then this petition is superfluous. There's no indication that he wants to be back nor any evidence of his contrition.

This forum has gone on without Speakeasy...no one is greater than the collective. Yes, it's a shame that his contributions have been overshadowed by his negative behaviour....but he deleted many of his contributions out of spite anyway. He won't be the first nor the last who thought he was irreplaceable.

To the future....

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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby risbolle » Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:46 pm

Another long time lurker few times poster.

No question about respecting the decision of the admin and the mods. This is their show, and I'm thankful for their efforts.

Just a general comment on some reoccurring sentiments, not necessarily limited to this thread:

There is nothing safe about knowledge let alone the exploration of ideas. There is also nothing safe about genuine human interaction. You will feel uncomfortable and offended, that much is guaranteed. Despite your best intentions, you are going to put people off or cause someone pain. Being disrespected is neither necessary nor sufficient for being offended.

Now, you can aim at building a platform for a free and respectful (as in "no attacking the person") exchange of information and ideas; or you can build a safe and comfortable space.

Trying to do both is hard to impossible. In the end the balance will tip to one side.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby chove » Sun Mar 07, 2021 6:51 pm

My run-in with this poster was them asking about gender differences in language learning and then getting angry whenever anyone mentioned the impact of sexism. He was the one getting offended by ideas, and not even controversial ones.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby Skynet » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:10 pm

chove wrote:Have they asked for an olive branch?


It doesn't matter. In the post-C19 world in which we find ourselves, the precedent has been set that the most vulnerable and senior citizens of society are a protected class. Other people have used expletives in this forum but were not banned. Why was a grouchy grandpa singled out?


Cavesa wrote: And even if you cannot see the hidden threads, the person can for example talk about you, which is a huge problem in case of defamation.

Cavesa, this is paranoia. People talk about each other all the time! How many times have you ever been involved in a defamation lawsuit after people <gulp> talked behind your back?

Cavesa wrote: Yes. Based on my experience, a motivated person anywhere can cause you a lot of damage, if they connect the dots from one platform to another, and if they use a strong enough accusation that is extremely hard to disprove. It is always harder to prove you haven't done something, than the opposite (I am living something similar right now).

This is seriously flawed logic, Cavesa! Unless you are telepathic, you cannot assume that your current situation reflects your interaction with Speakeasy. Projecting onto someone else is extremely unfair!

Cavesa wrote: It was a moment, in which I was considering erasing all my presence here, and on several other places,

I am surprised that this is how you felt and will just chalk it up to last year being 2020 and extremely tough. Looking at this as a party who wasn't privy to the exchange between the two of you, I struggle to believe that these feelings were not brought about by external factors, namely last year's chaos.

Cavesa wrote: The sacrifice of being falsely accused of something that is even a crime in many countries, that's too much. The sacrifice of verbal harassment and feeling very unsafe, that is not acceptable. Age should never be a reason for discrimination, but neither it should be a right to treat others badly.

Let me reiterate what I said before: I don't justify what he said to you or anyone else. I am just in awe that people are still raw about mean comments on an anonymous digital platform after A YEAR. That to me is a level of pettiness that is beyond my ability to reason.

iguanamon wrote: Politics has no place here. Neither does religious advocacy.

My very first incident with a mod occurred on the day on which I joined the forum. I was told that I could never mention religion and that I should read the forum rules. When I did so, I saw that politics was also banned and immediately asked why controversial issues like people's preferred genders and pronouns were plastered on certain accounts. Suffice it to say, I have yet to get a response after 3 years. That was the day that I realised that Commandment 7 was alive and well here: All animals are equals but some animals are more equal than others.

iguanamon wrote: We can "disagree, without being disagreable".

Agreed. That said, the good deeds of a members should always be weighed against the bad deeds of the member. If we are objective, we'd EASILY see that Speakeasy's good deeds outweighed his bad deeds. If someone had a bad day (or even week, for that matter) we should always look at their character and contributions to the forum. Panglossian views don't work in the real world: people mess up and we have to let go of grudges and move on.

iguanamon wrote: The moderators have a thankless job.

I absolutely agree: the mods do a GREAT job but even they are flawed. Who's ever petitioned to ban them because they felt grieved?

iguanamon wrote: That being said, I, for one (despite the fact that I, myself, have been a target of his wrath on one occasion) would like to see speakeasy return...

This is why I have always had a tremendous level of respect for you: you were always the one who'd diffuse tricky situations.

iguanamon wrote: he took some of those away (resource threads) in a fit of vengeance just before he was banned.

If he composed the thread, he has the right to remove it. We may not like it, but it his right to do so.

iguanamon wrote: It's up to speakeasy himself to ask to return and the moderators to decide whether or not they would find his return acceptable.

If I can find his contact information, I will personally ask him to contact the mods and get reinstated.

iguanamon wrote:Speakeasy deleting these posts became a bone of contention and controversy on the forum with some members and moderators finding this to be unacceptable and others feeling that members should have the inalienable right to delete their own posts.

I've published a few academic papers. I invested the time, money and effort into the research and should have the right to have the articles retracted from any journal in which my papers are published. How can the forum have a double-standard of banning authors but preventing them from taking their work with them? I'd would go as far as calling that IP theft.

MorkTheFiddle wrote:No doubt Speakeasy contributed much to this forum. But Cavesa has contributed at least as much. Putting myself in her shoes and in the shoes of the mods and admin, and knowing next to nothing about the details of the banishment, I take Cavesa's side in this. That's all I have to say.

Do you see how biased this is?

aokoye wrote:I have been talked about with ill will by Speakeasy on a number of occasions and would prefer that not to happen again. I also don't want to see the same happen to others. It is was not pretty and it made using the forum unenjoyable at best off and on for years. The mods have made their decision and that decision should stay with them. If he wants to contact the mods and ask to come back then he's free to do so, but it's ultimately not up to us to decide what should or shouldn't happen.

With all due respect, you and Speakeasy have never agreed on anything and are thus not capable of being objective because of a long-established feud from 2016 about Early Modern English. I read that thread in 2018 and remember it clearly on the FSI German thread when I was debating starting the course.

aokoye wrote: Heck I'm pretty sure he's PM'd me harassing comments at times (it's been a while).

If you are basing your (highly biased) opinion on evidence that you can't even remember, your claims are invalid. Don't damage someone's reputation based on something that may end up being a flight of fancy.

ashipinthenight wrote: no one is greater than the collective.

The collective? This is not a scene from Ira Levine's This Perfect Day! If members of the hive mind were allowed to disparage a certain member of this forum for expressing his views about the handling of the coronavirus saga last year, why can Speakeasy not be reinstated if we've already shown that mean words don't warrant an instant permanent ban? If mean words warrant a ban, then such a ban must be issued retroactively to every single person who used expletives in the discussion about the handling of the pandemic. I am only asking that we have a standard that doesn't just single out grouchy grandpas but is applies to everyone by UniComp.

chove wrote:My run-in with this poster was them asking about gender differences in language learning and then getting angry whenever anyone mentioned the impact of sexism. He was the one getting offended by ideas, and not even controversial ones.

The fact that you are writing a treatise on the matter shows that you were offended enough to even retain this in your memory. People get offended: it's what humans do. Should we ban them all?
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby Doodah » Sun Mar 07, 2021 8:31 pm

This forum, like all forums, runs on groupthink.

Anyone overly individualistic or having independent opinions gets outshouted by the chorus of conformity and gets banished sooner or later.
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Re: Petition: Bring Back Speakeasy

Postby Mista » Sun Mar 07, 2021 10:30 pm

Skynet wrote: If we are objective, we'd EASILY see that Speakeasy's good deeds outweighed his bad deeds.

That seems to me to be your subjective opinion rather than an objective fact. And while you are perfectly entitled to that opinion, I think you should at least acknowledge that there are a lot of people here who disagree with you, and that their opinions are just as valid as yours.
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