Copyright and HTLAL and reposting logs

[zenmonkey]

Copyright does not nullify if you don't use it. Unless an agreement specifically states it generally copyright is also allows to NOT publish a work - I can think of specific cases in Switzerland and Germany.

I would suggest, if the site comes up, that you download your own log and if you want to have it available on-line publish it to a personal blog. While personally I do not think that there is any issue in copying here your own work - I understand the reticence of the administrators in avoiding any risk, especially while the site is owned and managed my individuals, and we should respect that.

[Iversen]

There is a long text in English about Swiss copyright legislation here. And here a similar text in German. I'm not a lawyer, but here are my conclusions:

As I read the rules of HTLAL we have given FX to do almost anything he wishes with the content we have put there except as protected by 'moral right' (basically the right to be named as author and some protection of the integrity of the work - though it is permitted to make parodies and quote limited passages). However under Swiss law it is possible to give up one's author's rights either completely or for a limited period or use. So the point is: have each of us who wrote there done that? Not as far as I can see: we granted FX the right to use the material (a licence), but nothing in the provisions at HTLAL indicates in the form of a contract that the authorship rights have been transferred to FX. If I have not given up my individual authorship rights I should still have retained the right to copy my own messages in spite of the general ban on copying from the site, which certainly protects the structure and layout of HTLAL as a whole.

The question - which ultimately must be answered by people well versed in Swiss law - is whether I have the rights, but can't use them because of the general ban of copying. And the question here is whether such an interpretation of the ban would be a more serious offense against my rights as an author's right than making a copy of my own works in the absence of a formal contract. If you sell a book to a publishing house it would obviously want to hinder you in publishing the same work at a competing business the day after so there you sign a contract which hinders you in doing this, and you receive some kind of financial compensation. I didn't sign such a contract.

"[url=[URL=http://www.ssa.ch/de/content/das-urheberrecht]German[/url]Die Verträge[/URL]
Man unterscheidet zwischen Abtretungsverträgen und Lizenzverträgen:
Durch den Abtretungsvertrag überträgt der Urheber (der Abtretende) dem Übernehmer die Gesamtheit oder einen Teil seiner urheberrechtlichen Befugnisse für eine bestimmte Dauer und ein bestimmtes Land. Die Übertragung ist gegenüber allen anderen Personen wirksam, auch gegenüber dem Urheber, der nicht mehr Inhaber der übertragenen Befugnisse ist.
Durch den Lizenzvertrag ermächtigt der Urheber (der Lizenzgeber) den Lizenznehmer für eine bestimmte Dauer und ein bestimmtes Land zu festgelegten Nutzungen des Werks (ausschliesslicher Art oder nicht). Es findet keine Übertragung von urheberrechtlichen Befugnissen statt und der Lizenznehmer darf seine Befugnisse nicht gegenüber Dritten ausüben. Deswegen werden Lizenzen oft auch als «Nutzungsbewilligungen» bezeichnet. "

Furthermore I could assert my rights in the case of the complete destruction of my writings, as stated in the Berner convention:

"1) Unabhängig von seinen vermögensrechtlichen Befugnissen und selbst nach deren Abtretung behält der Urheber das Recht, die Urheberschaft am Werk für sich in Anspruch zu nehmen und sich jeder Entstellung, Verstümmelung, sonstigen Änderung oder Beeinträchtigung des Werkes zu widersetzen, die seiner Ehre oder seinem Ruf nachteilig sein könnten."

As for copying materials by other authors the same Berne convention allows us to quote excerpts of works for specific purposes, and the juridical question is here whether the ban on copying in the provisions of HTLAL can extinguish the rights we all have according to this treaty. It would at the very least be against the spirit of the treaty. However there could be one loophole, namely those special rules concerning digital copies which were introduced at least in some countries to block digital copying of music - but not copying from analog sources. But again this is something people with better juridical credentials than me must comment on - I don't know whether such laws would concern copies of text from the internet.

It should however be said that we almost certainly don't have the right to make and publish wholesale copies of the writings of others without their permission from a site like HTLAL as long the the copyright is in vigor - and that will in most cases say 70 years after the death of the author. If HTLAL had been under a more liberal licencing scheme that might have been legal, but not with the ban on copying clearly stated.

As for the licence chosen for this new site (language learners’ forum) I would not be happy to see a commercial or heavily commercial infested place grab all the content and publish it, but apart from that I would be happy to let people copy my writings freely, as long as they keep my name attached and don't mutilate them. And speaking of mutilation: the following excerpt from the Berner Convention could in principle make the use of Google Translate (except maybe for purely private use) illegal. But personally I dont' mind that people make translations, as long as they are loyal to the original and keep my name attached, so if anyone wants to translate them then just go ahead do it.

Die Urheber von Werken der Literatur und Kunst, die durch diese Übereinkunft geschützt sind, geniessen während der ganzen Dauer ihrer Rechte am Originalwerk das ausschliessliche Recht, ihre Werke zu übersetzen oder deren Übersetzung zu erlauben.

And what about this site? What you do at you own blogs outside this site is your own decision, but it is important not to run any risks here.

So in those cases where I have reused my own writings from HTLAL here I have taken care to reformulate them and let verbatim quotes be so short that they fall under the Berne convention. I would not republish for instance my Guide on Language Learning here without making so substantial changes that it would amount to a new work, and in order to avoid any legal risks for Rdearman and the site other users should stick to this rule too.

[dampingwire]

And what about this site?

That was written in the context of "what about copying from HTLAL to the language-learners.org site".

I'd like to ask about the rules for this site. Is this site going to allow copying one's own posts to other sites? I saw some discussion of a creative commons style licence, but nothing that looked like a final decision.

Right now HTLAL is down and I have no way of either updating my logs there. If HTLAL comes back up it sounds like (at least for now) I cannot republish them here. But what if I start new logs here ... I don't want to be in the same situation again, or, at the very least, I don't want to be in some kind of limbo ... not knowing whether the site owner(s) can object to me copying my logs off to somewhere else.

So what is language-learners.org policy?

[emk]

Right now HTLAL is down and I have no way of either updating my logs there. If HTLAL comes back up it sounds like (at least for now) I cannot republish them here. But what if I start new logs here ... I don't want to be in the same situation again, or, at the very least, I don't want to be in some kind of limbo ... not knowing whether the site owner(s) can object to me copying my logs off to somewhere else.

As far as I'm concerned, if you wrote it here, you can republish it wherever you like. And based on my discussions with rdearman and the other moderators, I believe we all agree about this.

[rdearman]

Right now HTLAL is down and I have no way of either updating my logs there. If HTLAL comes back up it sounds like (at least for now) I cannot republish them here. But what if I start new logs here ... I don't want to be in the same situation again, or, at the very least, I don't want to be in some kind of limbo ... not knowing whether the site owner(s) can object to me copying my logs off to somewhere else.

As far as I'm concerned, if you wrote it here, you can republish it wherever you like. And based on my discussions with rdearman and the other moderators, I believe we all agree about this.

At the moment your posting agreement is with me since I own the board, and I give you permission to repost you work wherever you like. We are however in discussion about the best license to use going forward which will give the most protection to the original author, but also allow continuity of the forum as well as the possible transfer of ownership to a charitable organisation.

[dampingwire]

Thanks both - that's great.

[neofight78]

At the moment your posting agreement is with me since I own the board, and I give you permission to repost you work wherever you like. We are however in discussion about the best license to use going forward which will give the most protection to the original author, but also allow continuity of the forum as well as the possible transfer of ownership to a charitable organisation.

I hope there will be some consultation on this?

[Bluepaint]

At the moment your posting agreement is with me since I own the board, and I give you permission to repost you work wherever you like. We are however in discussion about the best license to use going forward which will give the most protection to the original author, but also allow continuity of the forum as well as the possible transfer of ownership to a charitable organisation.

I hope there will be some consultation on this?

Desire for consultation noted. I'll do my best to see that happens and, in all honesty, I'm sure the other mods would want a consultation too.