Volunteers wanted

Discuss the LLORG's and HTLAL forum's past and its future here.
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emk
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby emk » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:32 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Let's keep this simple - what needs to be created is a UK unicorporated association. It is relatively easy, low cost and has very little administrative overhead as long as fees collected are under 5000 pounds a year. It is basically the easiest structure to create. And, should the organization grow, it can be converted to a Charitable Trust later.

I can have a fully incorporated private organization off the ground in under a day in the US, including a bank account, for less than it would cost to take somebody to dinner. :-) That's not actually the hard part. Quick investigation suggests that UK unincorporated associations do not appear to be a limited liability structure, so the people running might be personally liable for any lawsuits, etc. On top of that, UK libel law is a huge headache for internet forum. There's a lot of little details like this that we could either choose to gloss over, or choose to spend at least a bit of time on.

We're actually leaning towards a US organization at the moment, because we access to first-rate professional advice on the overall process and we can get through the basic steps faster than you might think. Also, we'd like to take a little bit of extra time to do things correctly, because certain things are much easier to do right in the first place than to clean up later.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby Michel1020 » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:35 pm

From a private message by rdearman I understand we need the new domain name because of potential issue with trademark violations.

Meaning it would be illegal to do something with the words how to learn any language ? If such basic sentences are illegal to use - we soon will have no more freedom to say, to write or to use any words.

Do I understand well that if the new name is wrong for some one we will buy a third one ? Is it not more logical to agree on a name first before buying it ?

I want to apologize to people I targeted in my previous post.
My words went too far - very sorry.

Please remember I am not a native english speaker - maybe my words were not correctly put to mean what was in my mind.
I didn't want to accuse anyone - by the way for sure not a personal attack I don't even remember the name of the so called targeted person if I don't read this thread again.
My point was to urge people to ask questions in this particular case about why to use a paying service to raise money when we have an audience here and could do it for free with no third party.

Obviously in most case in our lives we don't always use the best path - in this case the free one - not only because it is free but also because the other paths would mean a third party between our site and the payers - more parties more risks. You are free to think and write that I am wrong and the free one is not the best path - I will probably agree with some of your ideas on that.

Anyway not taking the best path don't mean a dishonnest purpose - how ridiculous from me to think so in the first place - more so when we think about how little money is involved here (unless of course we need to buy 2000 domain names). I don't believe we need our own server. Own server are for sites that use a lot of cpu or host a lot of data like video or that need to be more securized like gambling, banking or this kind of thing.

As far as I understand you want to create an organisation to avoid the risk of one person leadership for the site but a small organisation will be lead by one person too. Could we not do it with no organisation ? If not we should have had the organisation ready before the site is online.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:42 pm

Rhian wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:Let's keep this simple - what needs to be created is a UK unicorporated association. It is relatively easy, low cost and has very little administrative overhead as long as fees collected are under 5000 pounds a year. It is basically the easiest structure to create. And, should the organization grow, it can be converted to a Charitable Trust later.

http://www.resourcecentre.org.uk/inform ... ry-groups/


Interesting idea actually. But as I understand it, Rdearman has some concerns about UK libel law (as he pays for hosting and owns the current domain). If this place was run by a UK association it would still be subject to the same UK libel laws, right?


No - I'll get to that.

Every country has ups and downs in terms of risks - US tax and legal costs make it a resounding bad idea. France and Germany have less friendly rules with regards to Association Loi 1901 or Verein - each require registration, local bank accounts, etc. A Swiss Verein could work, but requires at least two people in Switzerland to draw up the Verein.

A UK unincorporated association does not create additional concerns of libel because it is unincorporated - the individuals members continue to carry their own responsibility in terms of debt, legal obligations, etc... it cannot enter into contract, it can't be sued, only it's members can, individually.

Libel, and issues with regards to the hosting of the site in the UK are actually more limited - the site is international in scope, the claimant of UK libel would need to demonstrate jurisprudence not only in terms of hosting but individuals involved and damages caused. Rdearman has relatively strong protection since 96 if he was not the libel author or editor of a post, if we (or really the mods and admin) take reasonable care to delete or remove posts of complaints are lodged and keep a clear policy that this is not allowed, maintaining no reason to believe that keeping our site or discussions could cause or contributed to the defamatory statements in general.

Now, I'm not a lawyer - but for over 10 years I was responsible for the largest on-line medical community in France and in Germany and lead the European strategy and marketing group and worked very closely with lawyers and my country equivalents in the UK, Italy, etc...

Hosting and the location of the association are basically two different legal concerns.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby tomgosse » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:45 pm

rdearman wrote:I don't want to step on the moderators toes and this really isn't my thing, there is someone dedicated to the topic of a charity. I know zip about charities other than giving the old bit of chango to some of them to help the less fortunate. We did look at the UK association, but there were a couple of issues with that, but it hasn't been discarded.

What I can say with confidence however is the establishment of a charity is a long-term project and not something we're going to do overnight. So I am just going to focus on site improvements. I would also like to say that regardless of what happens on that side of the fence, we'd still like some volunteers who'd be interested in generating content for the static portion of the site, when we eventually get around to setting it all up. So we need people who are willing to be authors, editors, proofreaders, translators, etc.

Don't wait around for an official charity to be organised before you volunteer!
:D


Put my name on the list. I would like to help.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby Bluepaint » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:50 pm

zenmonkey wrote:
No - I'll get to that.


Quoting so you know I'm addressing you.

If I have any more questions can I pm you? I understand you aren't a lawyer and won't have all the answers but you seem to have more experience than I do!
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby Bluepaint » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:54 pm

tomgosse wrote:
rdearman wrote: ...we'd still like some volunteers who'd be interested in generating content for the static portion of the site, when we eventually get around to setting it all up. So we need people who are willing to be authors, editors, proofreaders, translators, etc.

Don't wait around for an official charity to be organised before you volunteer!
:D


Put my name on the list. I would like to help.


PM me regarding what sort of volunteering you'd like to do. It's easier for me to keep track of everyone that way.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby rdearman » Tue Aug 25, 2015 10:56 pm

Michel1020 wrote:From a private message by rdearman I understand we need the new domain name because of potential issue with trademark violations.

Meaning it would be illegal to do something with the words how to learn any language ? If such basic sentences are illegal to use - we soon will have no more freedom to say, to write or to use any words.

Trademarks are actually a civil problem, not a criminal problem. Although we don't anticpate any serious legal problems with the use of the "how to learn any language" phrase, we've been told that it is better to just avoid the problem completely by getting a new name. In addition it is a curtosy to the owner of the old domain. So really it is more about politeness and respect.

Michel1020 wrote:Do I understand well that if the new name is wrong for some one we will buy a third one ? Is it not more logical to agree on a name first before buying it ?

The problem with trying to agree a name on an internet forum, is that there are people who would purchase the domains your talking about, just to charge you money when you've finally agreed on one. They are known as "squatters". So we have had to just buy one and hope for the best.

Michel1020 wrote:I want to apologize to people I targeted in my previous post.
My words went too far - very sorry.

Please remember I am not a native english speaker - maybe my words were not correctly put to mean what was in my mind.
I didn't want to accuse anyone - by the way for sure not a personal attack I don't even remember the name of the so called targeted person if I don't read this thread again.

We understand. I think we all know how difficult it can be to express yourself the way you'd like to in a second language.
Michel1020 wrote:My point was to urge people to ask questions in this particular case about why to use a paying service to raise money when we have an audience here and could do it for free with no third party.

Obviously in most case in our lives we don't always use the best path - in this case the free one - not only because it is free but also because the other paths would mean a third party between our site and the payers - more parties more risks. You are free to think and write that I am wrong and the free one is not the best path - I will probably agree with some of your ideas on that.

Anyway not taking the best path don't mean a dishonnest purpose - how ridiculous from me to think so in the first place - more so when we think about how little money is involved here (unless of course we need to buy 2000 domain names). I don't believe we need our own server. Own server are for sites that use a lot of cpu or host a lot of data like video or that need to be more securized like gambling, banking or this kind of thing.

As far as I understand you want to create an organisation to avoid the risk of one person leadership for the site but a small organisation will be lead by one person too. Could we not do it with no organisation ? If not we should have had the organisation ready before the site is online.

We've a couple of issues which we've learned over time. When the adminstration of the site is down to one person, it is difficult if not impossible for others to help out. So in this case I've given emk full admin rights, but even then there are things which only I can do as the site administrator, just because all the paperwork and payment is in my name. An organisation wouldn't have that problem, because the paperwork and payment is down to the organisation and not a single person. The organisation then dictates who can or cannot speak on its behalf.

The other problem we are trying to overcome is we don't just want to replicate the old system, but to improve it. Ideally we'd like to be able to make enormous advances in the availablilty of the system, the amount of tools we can provide to language learners, etc. And we would like to do that while still allowing people to drop in and out of the system as their lives and their priorites dictate. We don't want to "burn out" people, and a charity is a good way for people to help without having to dedicate their life to it.

We may or may not need a dedicated server as you so rightly point out, but at the moment we just want to make sure that any decision we do make doesn't restrict the community in the future from expanding as required.
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zenmonkey
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:02 pm

emk wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:Let's keep this simple - what needs to be created is a UK unicorporated association. It is relatively easy, low cost and has very little administrative overhead as long as fees collected are under 5000 pounds a year. It is basically the easiest structure to create. And, should the organization grow, it can be converted to a Charitable Trust later.

I can have a fully incorporated private organization off the ground in under a day in the US, including a bank account, for less than it would cost to take somebody to dinner. :-) That's not actually the hard part. Quick investigation suggests that UK unincorporated associations do not appear to be a limited liability structure, so the people running might be personally liable for any lawsuits, etc. On top of that, UK libel law is a huge headache for internet forum. There's a lot of little details like this that we could either choose to gloss over, or choose to spend at least a bit of time on.

We're actually leaning towards a US organization at the moment, because we access to first-rate professional advice on the overall process and we can get through the basic steps faster than you might think. Also, we'd like to take a little bit of extra time to do things correctly, because certain things are much easier to do right in the first place than to clean up later.


Incorporating in the US won't eliminate slander risks for an association officer in the UK. The issue in the US isn't the cost of creating an org, but the ongoing filing requirements - and should the org ever be sued - well, US legal costs go well beyond what can happen in the UK...

I actually own a US corp (in CA) for my software development - yes, it is easy. Reporting revenue, a little harder.

But if you want to run this as a non-profit out of the US - that can be fine too. I was offering a different viable structure that can't be sued.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby emk » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:03 pm

zenmonkey wrote:A UK unincorporated association does not create additional concerns of libel because it is unincorporated - the individuals members continue to carry their own responsibility in terms of debt, legal obligations, etc... it cannot enter into contract, it can't be sued, only it's members can, individually.

We'd like to avoid personal legal liability for the people running the forum if possible.

zenmonkey wrote:Now, I'm not a lawyer - but for over 10 years I was responsible for the largest on-line medical community in France and in Germany and lead the European strategy and marketing group and worked very closely with lawyers and my country equivalents in the UK, Italy, etc...

I'd prefer not to talk about any real-world identities here, out of courtesy. But I'll PM you later with more details of where we're getting our advice. Short form: They help put non-profits on sound legal and organizational footing professionally.
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Re: Volunteers wanted

Postby zenmonkey » Tue Aug 25, 2015 11:07 pm

Rhian wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:
No - I'll get to that.


Quoting so you know I'm addressing you.

If I have any more questions can I pm you? I understand you aren't a lawyer and won't have all the answers but you seem to have more experience than I do!


Of course - PM away.

I'll provide support for the site as well as I can - but for personal reasons - work, life and family I cannot take more than a very flaky here now, absent sometimes, gone for long moments attitude. So my volunteering will be punctual and inconsistent - which is a reason why I am not throwing my hat in for a lot of stuff - but if I'm around, I'm glad to help. But I also recognise that this place, especially with the history of the creation, needs consistent participants.
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