Non-HTLAL is too good to let die.

[Montmorency]

It would be great if we could attract people of the calibre of Professor Arguelles here. He had already stopped coming to HTLAL before I joined, but when I still had premium membership of HTLAL and could use the full search facilities, I used to search out his and some other posters posts from way back - he was a founder member wasn't he? And he liked to run his part of the forum like a rather strict academic lecture theatre. Fair enough; he brought so much that he could do it his way. And those were the days when FX still posted. I wonder if FX lost interest once the Prof. stopped coming.

I could think of some other people, but won't name names (in case they think of coming here - I don't want to frighten them off!) who used to post fairly regularly at HTLAL but stopped quite a while back (or slowed right down, almost to a stop). Probably it wasn't so much a reflection on HTLAL, but more that they were increasingly busy elsewhere, and there were other ways in which they could share their knowledge.

[iguanamon]

...there were other ways in which they could share their knowledge.

This is the key, I think. There were special rules for replying to Arguelles' posts in order to keep the discussion civilized and allow him to say his piece without some annoying teenager with a Teach Yourself book from Peoria chiming in with his or her two cents worth.

When HTLAL started, youtube wasn't anywhere near what it has become today. Nowadays, youtube has blossomed into a viable platform to connect with an audience directly without an intermediary- hence the term "youtube polyglots". Name your hero, they're there for the most part. They don't need to come here for stimulating discussion. They're past that. I am no where near his level and never will be. Prof. A has forgotten more about language learning than I or most of the rest of us will ever learn. What could I possibly say to him that would be worthy? I'm just a guy who managed to learn a few languages on his own. While my accomplishments mean a lot to me, I'm in the bush leagues compared to him. Benny used to contribute on HTLAL, but he is polarizing to many members and the discussions often degenerated and became nasty in short order. Benny has his own website and forum. He has connections with his peers. So, if you are as accomplished as these guys are, why would you want to put up with people who are much, much less accomplished repeatedly slamming you and your ideas? I can definitely see why youtube and a personal website are more appealing to them.

[pir]

I am a newbie to the forum, but not a newbie to language learning.

Forums are a bit old-fashioned these days but they do have their place. Aside from a few mainstream successes like Facebook and its predecessors, online discussion and social networking has always been a niche thing. It's already been discussed that forums like this tend to attract certain types of language learner. A little while ago there was a topic on "why are so many language learners programmers?" but what they really meant was "why are so many language learning forum members programmers?" - because forums attract the same sort of analytical people who aren't necessarily representative of language learners as a whole. Of course it's a generalisation, but most of the language learners I've met, including very successful ones, aren't "Internet types" don't really see the appeal or feel the need for a site like this.

Yes. I can't get any of my language-learning acquaintances to come here because while we're past the point where they wouldn't even use the newfangled internet, and they do use the net and social media, they're just not interested in the degree of analytical discussion that happens here. The beginners take their advice from random people on Facebook, or they end up on a site like Benny Lewis's or some other new-age of language learning guru, the more advanced people skim Youtube and blogs for content that interests them, and usually have their own channel/blog. If we wanted to compete with that, we'd have to become hipper, have a solid, goodlooking, modern static site, and use the forum as an adjunct to draw in the few people who'd be interested while the majority who come wouldn't bother.

I also mostly come here for the logs, I enjoy reading and writing about experiences of learning and using languages and I find it useful. However, these logs are again the kind of thing that many learners probably just don't see the point in; they might be more interested in practical advice and the emphasis on logs could be off-putting. On HTLAL I also found that the logs could feel a bit cliquey, the same few old-timers commenting on each other's logs and ignoring the rest, but I feel that much less on this new forum.

I mostly don't read the logs, but it's not because they feel cliquey per se, it's because they feel somewhat private and because I can't tell what the discussion is about before I go there -- too many logs to read them all. I am probably missing out. Maybe next month when I am less busy I'll find some more logs to add; I usually pick those by people who write lots of interesting posts in the other parts of the forum, or those by people who are learning the same languages I am learning, to lend them support.

I've gotten a lot out of these forums, in particular discovering the existence of Assimil and seeing a wider range and balance of opinions on things like input vs. output than you do from blogs or books that just present one author's ideas. But at the same time I do wonder if I'm getting much out of the forum for the time I spend on it or if I'd be better spending that time actually studying - again, lots of people learn languages well without spending hundreds of hours researching and discussing learning methods, and even those who do all the research and discussion often seem to have underwhelming results to show for it. Again this might be something that puts people off, they'd rather learn languages than talk about learning languages.

Yes, that might be a factor. For me it's irrelevant, what I get out of the forum isn't affecting my own learning much in any immediate form; I don't have urgent questions to which I need the answer in order to learn better, what I do learn is more a matter of letting ideas percolate and maybe something interesting will come from it some time later. The time spent here isn't competing with actually learning a language; it's the sort of social time I enjoy -- stimulating discussion about a subject I am deeply interested in.

I don't think the forum has a high chance of getting famous polyglots to join, if they haven't already. They have their own pulpits from which they broadcast these days, and while Youtube doesn't provide stimulating discussion in comments (*urk*), they associate with each other and talk to each other and get their quota of intellectual exchange that way. I think we're most attractive to people who're similar to us (which covers a range, but a much smaller range than that of all language learners), and I am not at all sure if we had a huge influx of differently minded newbies, like from Duolingo, for example, that we'd enjoy that a whole lot. I am patient and I like teaching newbs, and Duo's comment threads get even on my nerves because people don't bother to read through 30 short comments before asking the same questions over and over which would easily be answered by about.com, for example.

Which means it comes down to getting the word out to kin who hasn't found us yet. Inviting the people directly whom we see on other language-learning sites who seem like they might be a good fit. Putting the site in our signatures elsewhere. Redirecting from HTLAL if that's not seen as too crass. Finding some way to raise the profile in search engines. Working on the static content -- even if that first consists of mostly solid links until people come up with other things, which takes time. A good link collection is worth a lot too.

Where is the static content anyway? How is it organized? Is it easy to contribute things? I've seen it talked about, but since I was busy I promptly forgot. There should be a link right up there, and rolling announcements of what is being done in here, which might also spur people to contribute.

[smallwhite]

What is this website about?

Benny is about speaking fast.
Laoshu is about learning fast.
Luca is about learning well.
Richard is about learning lots.

And we? What is this website about?

About learning slowly, something is better than nothing, about fun over results, and?

Is it something attractive?

Attractive or not, are we conveying that image properly?

[emk]

And we? What is this website about?

We actually have quite a few posters here who've reached high levels in multiple languages, and some who have made very rapid progress. We have other people who prefer to proceed more slowly.

The unique feature of this community is that it isn't tied to a single language-learning approach. I have a huge amount of respect for bloggers like Khatzumoto and Benny, but they each have a highly personal method. Khatzumoto is like, "Sell all your English media! Immerse yourself totally!" Benny is like, "Speak from day one! Set a goal of reaching a specific CEFR level by a specific date. Study grammar in the B levels." This is all perfectly reasonable advice, for people who prefer those methods. Or I could visit the sites of Antimoon or Alexander Arguelles or a half-dozen other polyglots, and read their methods.

The unique thing about this community is that we have a lot of polyglots who use a wide range of methods—Iversen has documented his approach thoroughly, and Bakunin has been trying all sorts of interesting experiments, and Serpent watches sports in an impressive number of languages, and I could go on all day.

Why do I hang around now and then? Well, once upon a time, this forum provided the moral support I needed to make it from A2 to B2 in the months before my exam. And it introduced me to the Super Challenge, which made an enormous difference in my comprehension. And I made a lot of friends, some of whom I've been lucky to hang out with real life. These days, it depends on my mood. Sometimes I'll disappear for a couple of months. And when I'm here, mostly just use the forum for exchanging lists of cool French media. And sometimes, I try to pay forward all the help this community has given me by encouraging a first-time language learner.

One of my very favorite parts of this community: There are people here whom I can remember encouraging back when they were still trying to reach A1 for the first time. And today, these are some of the same people with whom I have long conversations in French on Skype.

[smallwhite]

And we? What is this website about?

We actually have quite a few posters here who've reached high levels in multiple languages, and some who have made very rapid progress. We have other people who prefer to proceed more slowly.

The unique feature of this community is that it isn't tied to a single language-learning approach...

The unique thing about this community is that we have a lot of polyglots who use a wide range of methods...

Fine. Are we communicating this unique characteristic to potential members? Can potential members sense that we are like that? Do potential members like that?

[Serpent]

What is this website about?

Benny is about speaking fast.
Laoshu is about learning fast.
Luca is about learning well.
Richard is about learning lots.

And we? What is this website about?

About learning slowly, something is better than nothing, about fun over results, and?

All of the above We're doing our best to be open to all language learners, no matter if they're learning for practical reasons or as an intellectual exercise or whatever, whether they set specific goals or not.

Historically, HTLAL has mostly been the space for those who're learning without a class, whether because it's a rare/less common language (which is how/why I found the site when learning Finnish on my own), or if they [used to] genuinely believe they can reach their desired level with Pimsleur, Assimil or whatever, or the classes exist but they can't attend them, and then the ones on the fence about the possibility of learning on your own and looking for proof in either direction.

Somewhat paradoxically, most HTLAL'ers have in fact taken at least some classes, but for many they were inefficient, and others simply recognize them as one of many tools you need or can use.

how-to-learn-any-language.com was exactly that. so is language-learners.org, which at least according to the name should focus even more on learners themselves and perhaps have less bias towards learning/finishing a language, or learning only one at a time. the youtube and similar features also make it easier to show some cool stuff and help others discover the culture and possibly choose their next language. Time will tell how different this community will be from htlal.com.

[Wanderer81]

I was a long-term lurker at HTLAL due to technical issues, but I always found the discussion for the most part to be useful and intellectually stimulating. Here at LLO, I feel the same way. People have different methods, theories, opinions, etc. and they can share them in a forum of people who are interested in the topic. I post in a number of forums on different topics (under different handles), and those forums are similar to this one in that they are welcoming.

The problems with forums today isn't so much that they are not useful; it is that they are oft-putting. The majority are either places for people to fight over a few issues, or they are groupie sites for whoever set them up. Neither of these types of forums are interesting to me at all.

This forum has a good balance to it.

[Cavesa]

I find it very important we can discuss anything related to language learning independently here, without ties to one product, one method, one person or one goal. I cannot imagine myself registering to the Benny's forum and discussing learning the passive skills first, bringing the topic of the best grammar/vocabulary workbooks in the discussion under some of Khatzumoto's articles, add an honest negative experience to a discussion on a forum belonging to the RS and so on, no matter how much I admire Benny and Khatzumoto and respect their achievements.

What has the HTLAL given me:
-I am not the only weirdo interested in more languages than they "need". It is awesome because I can share this interest with people and humbling at the same time as it balances out the compliments from my L1+English surroundings. And that is a prerequisite for further progress, I'd say.
-I explored tons of new options, such as Assimil, Pimsleur, SRS (!!!!!), and many others. I have incorporated the funcional ones into my routine. Tons of tvseries, books and such things that became an essencial part of learning for me. All that would have been much less likely to find the way into my life.
-I explored more languages than a healthy dose and, after a wanderlust phase, I got to studying several and I have gotten results I hadn't even hoped for before. HTLAL gave me the courage and tools to try it.
-contacts with many people I admire, whose posts I thoroughly enjoy and from whom I've learnt a lot. So far, I had the luck to meet one in person, hopefully this will improve.

Nowadays, it helps keeping me motivated with my log (a publicly visible account of my efforts/laziness), with friendly challenges (the SC turned the tables for me), with discussion on topics we don't overall find exhausted (many subjects of discussions from the last several years haven't even appeared since the new htlal foundation, so there seems to be a kind of an agreement on that).

I am glad we don't actually have one flagship member/method, as I find so many people here inspiring or at least thought provoking (and many of them have been lerning "just" one language). On the Benny's forum (just an example, it is not an attack on his achievement, efforts, methods, or community, I wish him all well), it is all about everyone trying to apply the same method and some succeeding (good for them). That wouldn't be such an awesome ground for me to grow from.

I've given it bit of thought since we've moved( particularily when we were choosing the name of the new htlal). All these values, most of which appear to be shared by a large part of the community) are hard to squeeze into one catchy phraze to drag a stream of newbies here. The only phrase that fitted the forum perfectly was "how to learn any language". Just that. We've mostly moved to the new forum with a new address that doesn't show up that easily in google. People aren't that likely to just get lost on the internet and end up here now. That was the way I found the old htlal. But I'd say the new default look (thanks for it!) is a good way to get this lost browsers' attention.

So, we can still just look around on our other forums, in our other groups and communitites and invite people to join. We should inform all the active newbies on the old htlal. What else is there to do? And do we even need tons of static content and such stuff? Do we need to attract crowds? I agree it might not be that great if the whole duolingo + memrise userbases got here as we might be simply outnumbered on this much nicer platfrom without the long created atmosphere.

And about spending more time here than on the languages: of course it can happen. But noone is being tied to their chair and forced under threats (such as their favourite assimil getting hurt) to spend time here. A procrastinator could spend the time watching the flies, googling new knitting patterns (despite not knowing to knit) or playing candycrush. It is up to us to train a will and discipline strong enough so that we could succeed. I can't speak for others, but I'm not gonna throw blame for my procrastination on the forum. I've been doing worse things.

[Xenops]

I was a regular for a short while at the end of 2014 and beginning of 2015, and then I got burnt out on language learning. I am easing back into language learning, with smaller goals that do not overwhelm me. As for HTLAL and this forum, if the former is buggy and the administrator is not attending to it, I think we should continue ALLF, and maybe make this forum known on the old site. From the lack of activity I have seen from the HTLAL owner, I would be surprised if he is offended at the new forum, or even knows it exists.