German group

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Doitsujin
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Re: German group

Postby Doitsujin » Tue May 02, 2017 9:03 am

Chung wrote:In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.
For me as a native speaker, both sentences would convey exactly the same meaning, unless I heard them spoken and the speaker emphasized "diese Zeitschrift" or "jede Woche" in either of the sentences.
I.e., simply fronting a sentence part without shifting the sentence stress won't necessarily create the same effect in German as cleft sentences in English.

You could add more emphasis by fronting the object, followed by an inverted verb construction:

Diese Zeitschrift lese ich jede Woche.
Jede Woche lese ich diese Zeitschrift.

This construction is closer in function to an English cleft sentence.
Last edited by Doitsujin on Tue May 02, 2017 11:03 am, edited 1 time in total.
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smallwhite
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Re: German group

Postby smallwhite » Tue May 02, 2017 10:05 am

For addition to the resource list:

I found this page about sentence structure extremely useful:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Grammar/Sentences

In particular, this table about word order in main clauses:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Gr ... in_clauses

and this table for dependant clauses:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Gr ... nt_Clauses

(Double posting 08 Jul 2016)
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Brun Ugle
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Re: German group

Postby Brun Ugle » Tue May 02, 2017 11:15 am

smallwhite wrote:For addition to the resource list:

I found this page about sentence structure extremely useful:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Grammar/Sentences

In particular, this table about word order in main clauses:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Gr ... in_clauses

and this table for dependant clauses:
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/German/Gr ... nt_Clauses

(Double posting 08 Jul 2016)


Thanks. That was really useful. There's nothing like a nice chart to clear things up.
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Re: German group

Postby Systematiker » Tue May 02, 2017 10:22 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
Chung wrote:In fact, I'm starting to wonder if German word order resembles word order in Finnish or Hungarian whereby the most important or newest piece of information occurs towards the end of the phrase as I suspect it to be in something like Ich lese diese Zeitschrift jede Woche versus Ich lese jede Woche diese Zeitschrift. Both sentences seem grammatical to me although I can't imagine that they give identical signals to interlocutors.
For me as a native speaker, both sentences would convey exactly the same meaning, unless I heard them spoken and the speaker emphasized "diese Zeitschrift" or "jede Woche" in either of the sentences.
I.e., simply fronting a sentence part without shifting the sentence stress won't necessarily create the same effect in German as cleft sentences in English.


Even unspoken, it can emphasize, though (noted, not exactly the same as English). Check out the Dudengrammatik on Wortstellung im Mittelfeld (which also gives us Bekanntes vor Unbekanntem), or certain theories of scrambling (Frey, apparently; hey, not my
field. I did check with my wife before I opened my mouth, haha).



Oh, and in general, I'm on the side of exposure before rules - I had to do some discussion on whether there was a difference and what it was, so the "why" of it definitely comes after lots of exposure to how things are done in my case. But it's nice to be able to figure out why (insofar as there is a difference, which apparently not everyone agrees on).
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Prohairesis
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Re: German group

Postby Prohairesis » Sat May 06, 2017 9:59 am

Hello everyone,

I'm new to this forum and just came across the German group. I've been inconsistently learning German since mid-2012. I started at the A1 (CEFR) level and within two years of on-and-off intensive lessons at the Goethe-Institute (in Bangkok, Munich, Freiburg and Berlin), took and passed the Goethe-Zertifikat B2 in August 2014.

It's been almost three years since I've had the certificate, and my active skills (speaking and writing) have turned to rust since then. My reading and listening skills are not what they once were, but I still understand quite a lot. At the same time, I turned 27 this year and do realize that I am now entering a new phase in my life where language acquisition will not be as easy as before.

In comparison, I started learning French back in 2007 (at 17 years of age) and by the beginning of 2015, passed the DALF C2. In that time, I spent a couple of months living in Geneva, and altogether four years in Paris, doing a degree in French literature and culture.

When I look at the two learning curves, I somehow get the impression they are inverted. With German, I started advancing much faster, and then hit the ceiling later. With French, the curve is much more gradual, as I did not, then, have the time to take intensive classes from the beginning.

The method also differed - I had a teacher who taught the class in English, and so learning French seemed more like an object of intellectual study than a practical exercise. For a long time, I found myself having to translate everything I wanted to say in French. But as soon as I moved to Paris and began my degree, I really had to adapt and learning French became a matter of necessity and survival.

My questions are as follows : what would generally be the best method to get my German up to C2 without having to invest myself in a formal degree ? Would it take much longer ? Or would the fact of having started German off on the right foot compensate for any potential lag in my learning curve ?

-- As a side note, I'm not a big fan of formal learning resources (textbooks and grammar reference books), but I do enjoy reading German aimed at a young readership. I'm currently giving Ernst Gombrich's "Eine kurze Weltgeschichte für junge Leser" a go. It's a great book. --
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Re: German group

Postby Speakeasy » Sun May 07, 2017 4:21 am

Prohairesis, welcome to the forum! I'm going to "go out on a limb" here by making a few suggestions.

A1 to C2
First, I assume that, based on your own real-life experiences, you are quite aware that there are many paths that can lead an independent language-learner from the A1 level of linguistic competence to the C2 level. Not only could one write a book on the subject, several such books have been written! So then, in a rare attempt at brevity, I will recommend the follow resources for your consideration. Please note that, for every one of the them, numerous alternatives exist.

Grammars
I appreciate your reluctance to work with grammars; however, it would be remiss on my part if I failed to mention this aspect of your studies. I have copied/pasted the following comment from a previous post that made on the subject of grammars … “I would abstain from acquiring a more elaborate grammar at least until having entered the intermediate level of language study. While such works provide much more information than their more rudimentary counterparts, they tend to present the elements of grammar in all their nuances which, while both interesting and useful, has the paradoxical effect of confusing the beginner and diverting his attention from the basic, central issue; that is, they cause the student to ‘lose the forest for the trees.’ In addition, elaborate grammars tend to present complex sentences (a) using vocabulary well beyond the level of the beginner, and (b) containing other elements of grammar that are not readily apparent to the beginner, but which are essential to his understanding of the example and the rule of grammar being discussed.” Having said that, I would recommend that you consider adding the following materials to your collection:

German Verbs & Essentials of Grammar, by Charles J. James, published by McGraw-Hill
This small book provides a basic over-view of the most fundamental elements of German Grammar.

Handbuch zur deutschen Grammatik: Wiederholen und anwenden, by Jamie Rankin, Larry Wells, published by Houghton-Mifflin
This course is conceived as a thorough review of German grammar up to the advanced-intermediate level. The student components include a textbook, an Arbeitsheft/Workbook/Lab Manual, and 3 CDs accompanying the examples in the textbook and the Lab Manual.

Hammer’s German Grammar and Usage, by Martin Durrell, published by Routledge
This grammar is widely-recognized as “the” English-language reference for German grammar. While truly excellent, consulting it before one has achieved a solid intermediate level could easily lead the unprepared reader down the garden path.

Readers and Other Compilations
I am confident that you can locate any of the thousands of elementary readers (as well as those purportedly at the intermediate level) that are available for expanding one’s vocabulary and one’s appreciation for German literature. Rather than propose a list of the “usual suspects”, I would suggest that you consider the following textbooks drawn from an earlier period. They are just as relevant as anything else you’ll find and used copies are quite inexpensive.

Intermediate German, by Eric Meyer, published in 1960 by Houghton-Mifflin
Es geht weiter, by Eric Wilson, published in 1977 by Harper & Rown
Modernes Deutschland in Brennpunk: A Cultural Reader, by Allen Hye, published in 1978 by W.W. Norton & Company
Was Deutsche Lesen, by Karl Van D’Elden, Evelyn Firchow, published in 1973 by McGraw-Hill
German for Advanced Intermediates, by Charles Genno, published in 1988 by Canadian Scholars’ Press
Blick und Einsicht (Introductory & Intermediate), by Wolf von Schmidt, published in 1979 by Heinle & Heinle
A Reader in German Literature, by Robert Spaethling, Eugene Weber, published in 1969 by Oxford University Press
Dichter, Denker und Erzähler, by Peter Heller, Edith Ehrlich, published in 1982 by Waveland Press
Der Weg zum Lesen, by Van Horn Vail, Kimberly Sparks, published in several editions by Harcourt Brace


Reading Guides
The following guides are not readers in themselves; they present extracts from authentic sources and suggest with strategies for expanding one’s reading ability. Attempting to cover these materials without having achieved a solid intermediate-level competence in German grammar could lead to serious frustration (been there, done that!). Hence, I would recommend that one read through several of the readers/compilations mentioned above before working through these guides.

Reading German: A Course Book and Reference Grammar, by Waltraud Coles and Bill Dodd, published by Oxford University Press.
German for Reading, by Karl Sandberg, Jon Wendel, published in several editions by Focus/Hackett Publishing
German for Reading Knowledge, by Hubert Jannach, published in several editions by American Book Company and Others


German Courses with “generous” amounts of audio recordings
There are thousands of introductory courses available, most of which contain two-CDs-worth of audio recordings. From the perspective of the independent-learner who wishes exposure to a reasonable-to-large amount of audio recordings, the best of the lot are:

Assimil German & Assimil la pratique de l’allemand
Linguaphone German (Deutschkurs & Deutscher Aufbaukurs)
FSI German Basic (freely available): employs the audio-lingual method of instruction*
DLI German Basic (freely available): employs the audio-lingual method of instruction*
Je parle l’allemand, Éditions Atlas, circa 1985
Glossika German files

*BITTE, let's not start another debate on the usefulness of the audio-lingual method of instruction!

Video (with subtitles) Killed the Radio Star
FluentU
Yabla
Deutsche Welle


Tutors: Which, When, Whether?
There seems to be a developing consensus amongst some forum members that working with tutors is either very beneficial or absolutely pointless. Take your pick!

Der Weg zum C2
Move to Germany, pretend that you're French and that you don't speak English, get a job, find a life-mate, settle in, don't come back.

Good luck with your studies!
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aokoye
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Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Sun May 07, 2017 4:48 am

Speakeasy wrote:Video (with subtitles) Killed the Radio Star
FluentU
Yabla
Deutsche Welle

I just wanted to add that a number of the videos on ZDF and various other German stations that are avalible online have subtitles (just click the UT (untertitel) button)
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Prohairesis
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Re: German group

Postby Prohairesis » Sun May 07, 2017 6:44 am

Speakeasy, thank you so much for your very comprehensive answer. I will definitely look into the literature you suggested. I completely agree that having a good grasp of the grammar is very important, and will strive to work on it in the future. On the subject of grammar, I realize that in many of the Modellsätze for all levels, A1 through to C2, there are usually grammar-related questions - mainly in the form of texts with gaps where you have to fill in a missing preposition/word, and account for a fair percentage of the section's total number of points.

One last thing I wanted to ask you was whether, generally speaking, there's a big difference between the C1 and C2 exams ? I do realize my question may seem to contain a contresens, but it's a question I've been asking myself for quite a while. I know that depending on the language and exam board, the differences and difficulties between the two levels may vary. But what is the distinguishing factor between the two levels ? I've read the official CEFR criteria, but they only confuse me more.

When I took the DALF C2, it was after three years of living in France and writing university-level papers and doing presentations on a weekly basis. I took the exam at the Alliance Française in Bangkok, where only about 7 people have taken the C2 since the exam's been on offer (since 2006). In comparison, close to 80 people have taken the C1. Does this suggest that there's a significant leap between the two levels ? And if so, what distinguishes C2 from C1 ?

Many thanks, again, for your answer to my previous post.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Sun May 07, 2017 10:42 am

Prohairesis wrote:One last thing I wanted to ask you was whether, generally speaking, there's a big difference between the C1 and C2 exams ? I do realize my question may seem to contain a contresens, but it's a question I've been asking myself for quite a while. I know that depending on the language and exam board, the differences and difficulties between the two levels may vary. But what is the distinguishing factor between the two levels ? I've read the official CEFR criteria, but they only confuse me more.


Hello, friend. :)

I would say that the principal difference between the Goethe-Zertifikat C1 and C2 exams comes down to Sprachgefühl. I heard a teacher once put it to us as follows: You might potentially be able to BS your way through some parts of the C1 exam, making educated guesses with the multiple-choice parts, but there's absolutely no outsmarting the C2 exam by trying to cover up holes in one's knowledge. Sprachgefühl simply cannot be made up, and success on the C2 depends on having acquired gobs of it and deploying it almost with a sort of finesse.

Along those lines, I found it far more straightforward to prepare for the C1. I did the prep books by Klett and Hueber, I hoovered up as many Nomen-Verb-Verbindungen as I could, and I practiced the writing and speaking sections with peers and teachers. It was fairly mechanical; end of story.

When it came to the C2, I did all the mechanical preparation, too. But my prep-course classmates and I were constantly driven up the wall with the realization that many of the answers seemed almost arbitrarily to hinge upon whether you, the test-taker, had come to agree with the rather subjective view of the test author, one which sometimes even appeared to flout conventional logic. Even our teachers didn't find many of the sample exams' answer explanations compelling. Time after time, we'd look over answers in bafflement and say among ourselves, "Yes, I get that this claims that B is correct, and I know the first five definitions for this verb in the Duden... but, no, I'm sorry, I don't find at all that B is a convincing answer for the question in the way that it's posed." Of course, who cares what some foreign test-taker sitting in a room in Frankfurt thinks? Nobody. At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether one can think like the test writers, anticipate their logic, and apply it to the answer choices, however poorly suited some of the answers seem.

Your academic background will help you enormously with the C2. It is, as one of our teachers put it, a "bildungsnah" exam. A person who doesn't already enjoy spending hours each month reading Der Spiegel, SZ Langstrecke, GEO, etc., will have a miserable gap to bridge in preparation. A person not up on current events and the broader concerns floating around in contemporary German society will also have a lot of remedial work to do.

That's the other principal difference between the C1 and the C2, I'd say: A person could conceivably sit and pass the C1 exam right at the end of finishing a C1-level course sequence at the Goethe-Institut, hot off the presses. I saw a few people do this fresh out of C1.2, and several passed. But it generally wasn't a strong pass, more like an average of 72%. With the C2, however, it simply doesn't appear possible to try the same tack. There is too much to be absorbed after the completion of C1 to be able to pop into a month or two of full-time C2-level work and pass the exam after that, to say nothing of taking the time to further develop one's Sprachgefühl. One acquaintance of mine was determined to pass the C2 in Munich after one month of C2-level instruction... he failed the exam five consecutive months as he kept trying. But he did pass eventually, just not on the one- or two-month timeline he had envisioned for himself.

Oh! I know you've said you're not so big on working through a traditional textbook. But I have to speak up for the amazing Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe: Deutsch als Fremdsprache (ISBN: 978-3192074486) and the Sag's besser workbooks, all from Hueber (and purchased in Freiburg!). Working through those books systematically starting at the B2 level on my own kicked my ass hardcore. Nothing else brought me such a dramatic improvement as those books for the amount of time invested.

I have heaps more postmortem stuff I could say about the exams, but I'll keep quiet in the interest of everyone's sanity, and out of interest for what others add. If you ever have further specific questions, just shoot. :)
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gsbod
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Re: German group

Postby gsbod » Sun May 07, 2017 11:46 am

schlaraffenland wrote:When it came to the C2, I did all the mechanical preparation, too. But my prep-course classmates and I were constantly driven up the wall with the realization that many of the answers seemed almost arbitrarily to hinge upon whether you, the test-taker, had come to agree with the rather subjective view of the test author, one which sometimes even appeared to flout conventional logic. Even our teachers didn't find many of the sample exams' answer explanations compelling. Time after time, we'd look over answers in bafflement and say among ourselves, "Yes, I get that this claims that B is correct, and I know the first five definitions for this verb in the Duden... but, no, I'm sorry, I don't find at all that B is a convincing answer for the question in the way that it's posed." Of course, who cares what some foreign test-taker sitting in a room in Frankfurt thinks? Nobody. At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether one can think like the test writers, anticipate their logic, and apply it to the answer choices, however poorly suited some of the answers seem.


I am nowhere near C2 yet, but I could still totally relate to this! I have been exposed to a number of practice tests at B1/B2 levels, both through a B1 class I have done and my own use of practice tests to confirm comprehension levels and in pretty much every test I have tried, there is always at least one question where you cannot be certain what the answer is supposed to be, no matter how well you understand the text itself. I have always felt like this must be down to some kind of "German logic", where there must be something going on outside the text which is selbstverständlich to the test writers but a mystery to test takers like me! I complained about this to my teacher who was somewhat dismissive and claimed that there must be some detail within the text I don't fully understand, which is generally a fair assumption to make of a student in a B1 class - and I am aware from my experience with JLPT tests for Japanese comprehension that being able to select the correct answer often came down to correctly understanding the meaning of just one word in the whole text. I felt somewhat vindicated when we went through one of these troublesome texts as a class, confirmed that my understanding of the text was correct, however in order to answer the question at the end it was a case of "c and d are definitely wrong, if you assume x (which is not stated in the text) the answer must be a but if you don't it will be b" - so I answer b but the correct answer is a.
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