German group

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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Sun May 07, 2017 11:39 pm

aokoye wrote:Thank you for this post but especially the recommendations of Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe and Sag's besser. You're the second person here who has strongly recommended Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe, which I suppose means I should actually start using it ;) I'm pretty sure it will also kick my ass but I am in no doubt that it'll be useful. Which Sag's besser books did you use? All of them or just a few?


Glad to help! I have Sag's besser, Teil 1 and Teil 2, both by Hans Földeak. I've worked extensively out of Teil 1 but have done more of a buffet-style approach to Teil 2 so far, dipping in just where I needed to do so. My teachers at the C1 and C2 levels, and the teachers for the C2 exam prep course, drew very heavily from Teil 1 photocopies to drill us. It was invaluable, especially the sections on Umformungen and Nominalisierung. In fact, those are what helped developed my Sprachgefühl lots in a short time. It was just a couple of weeks before the C2 exam, and I'd regularly get only 50 or 60 percent of the Nominalisierung exercises correct from Sag's besser. There were combinations I simply hadn't ever seen, even after however many hundreds of hours of practice. I wanted to eradicate the discouraging feeling from getting so many (very simple, very precise) things wrong in those exercises. I made cloze deletion cards in Anki for all of the Nominalisierung exercises I got wrong -- "You got me this time, but you're never gonna fool me again if I see you in the wild!" -- and it worked like a charm. I learned dozens of idiomatic formulations in a short time through those books.

aokoye wrote:Also I, for one, would be really interested in hearing more of your postmortem about exams. I'm very likely taking TestDaF in September after spending two months in Germany and Austria (I'm going to Freie Universtät Berlin's summer school for four weeks and then visiting a friend in Vienna). I'm very likely at a B2(.2) right now and am hoping to test into the C1 class this summer. I will likely never take the Goethe Institut C2 exam, but hearing you and others talk about it is both very interesting and useful.


Sure! I am unfortunately not familiar with TestDaF -- knew many people who took it, but I never looked at it myself, since I decided to go the Zertifikat path. But if you are already in the German-speaking world this summer, you've already got a huge advantage for your practice, as you know. I think if you are challenging yourself not just with things at your level, but above your level, you will make astronomical gains in your couple of months. The Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe is great for that, as mentioned. The level of detail is just amazing and even taught me shortcuts or rules that we never once touched upon in classroom work with the standard textbooks. I didn't earnestly focus on learning Nomen-Verb-Verbindungen until I was well underway at the C1 level; I wish I had started at B1. It would have made my expressions a lot richer a lot sooner. The lists of N-V-V in the back of classroom textbooks like Erkundungen C1 or C-Grammatik: Übungsgrammatik Deutsch als Fremdsprache, Sprachniveau C1/C2 (same publisher/authors) are a godsend for this.

If you have specific questions about particular challenges, I'm always happy to help. :)
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aokoye
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Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Mon May 08, 2017 1:02 am

Systematiker wrote:
AlOlaf wrote:
schlaraffenland wrote:Oh! I know you've said you're not so big on working through a traditional textbook. But I have to speak up for the amazing Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe: Deutsch als Fremdsprache (ISBN: 978-3192074486) and the Sag's besser workbooks, all from Hueber (and purchased in Freiburg!).

I also derived great benefit from these books. In addition, I had a grammar epiphany as a result of working through two others: Essential German Grammar (ISBN 0-07-141338-3) in English and Lehr- und Übungsbuch der deutschen Grammatik (ISBN 978-3-19-007255-2) in German. But for a real C2-level challenge, nothing beats Hueber's Übungsgrammatik für Fortgeschrittene (ISBN 978-3-007448-8). This is what the C2 classes were using when I took the GDS-Prüfung in Frankfurt.


I second the recommendation of the Übungsgrammatik für Fortgeschrittene with all my heart. I think I've recommended it elsewhere as well - it's ideal.

You have! In this thread I think. You were the one I was referring to actually when I said that someone else had referred to it :D
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Prohairesis
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Re: German group

Postby Prohairesis » Mon May 08, 2017 3:11 am

Cavesa wrote:Well, there is as well the issue of being able to choose the science or lettres version. Does any other exam have this feature? Do the German ones? I took science, because I find it easier and I think it is trully much more predictable and balanced in terms of difficulty and even content. The humanities version seems to include extremes quite often, eather subjects even the examinators consider difficult, or subject so stupid the candidates have a problem to put together enough text about the issue. I don't think they multiply anything, they simply put together a score somewhere on the 0-50 scale for each half of the exam. I'd say it makes sense, as the skills get coupled like this in the real life too, and it makes the exam a bit easier, as you don't need to worry that much about one skill destroying the result, or harder, if your production skills are so bad they cover the good comprehension skills.

As you did both, if I am not mistaken, do you think the German exams are a lot different from the French ones? Is there something significantly more difficult or easier about them?


The Goethe exams, from A1 through to C2, do not provide you with the option of choosing between sciences or lettres/sciences humaines. With the Großes Deutsches Sprachdiplom though, I do believe that for the writing section, you do have the option of either answering one of the two current events-based theme or to answer a literature-based question. For the literature-based question, you would have to read in advance at least one of the two assigned books that are being used for the GDS in the year in which you're taking the exam (the books change from year to year).

With regards to the DALF C2, I am quite positive that they multiply your respective speaking and writing scores by two, to produce a total number of 50 available points for each half. I remember speaking with a DELF/DALF exam coordinator the day I went in to get my attestation. She said that the examiners operate on the principle that the score you get for the productive skills are inextricable from the comprehension skills (example : your oral exam is based on the tape you need to listen to and summarise/analyse, and the writing component is based on texts you need to read and partially "synthesize" in your own writing). So the score you receive for writing/speaking (out of 25 each) is multiplied by two. Wherein lies the slippery slope...

As a side note, to this day I've only passed the Zertifikat B1 and B2. I'm now aiming to take the C1 before the end of this year,in part thanks to schlaraffenland's encouragement. When you compare the Goethe C1 and C2 with the DALF C1 and C2 exams, I must say Goethe's exam format allows for more guiding questions, for which answers generally the multiple-choice form. With the DALF though, the writing and speaking parts notwithstanding, they tend to pose open-ended questions soliciting full-sentence answers. Depending on the exam taker's strengths, I suppose either the Goethe or the DALF could be easier/more difficult than the other.
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Re: German group

Postby Chung » Mon May 08, 2017 6:02 am

schlaraffenland wrote:
aokoye wrote:Thank you for this post but especially the recommendations of Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe and Sag's besser. You're the second person here who has strongly recommended Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe, which I suppose means I should actually start using it ;) I'm pretty sure it will also kick my ass but I am in no doubt that it'll be useful. Which Sag's besser books did you use? All of them or just a few?


Glad to help! I have Sag's besser, Teil 1 and Teil 2, both by Hans Földeak. I've worked extensively out of Teil 1 but have done more of a buffet-style approach to Teil 2 so far, dipping in just where I needed to do so. My teachers at the C1 and C2 levels, and the teachers for the C2 exam prep course, drew very heavily from Teil 1 photocopies to drill us. It was invaluable, especially the sections on Umformungen and Nominalisierung. In fact, those are what helped developed my Sprachgefühl lots in a short time. It was just a couple of weeks before the C2 exam, and I'd regularly get only 50 or 60 percent of the Nominalisierung exercises correct from Sag's besser. There were combinations I simply hadn't ever seen, even after however many hundreds of hours of practice. I wanted to eradicate the discouraging feeling from getting so many (very simple, very precise) things wrong in those exercises. I made cloze deletion cards in Anki for all of the Nominalisierung exercises I got wrong -- "You got me this time, but you're never gonna fool me again if I see you in the wild!" -- and it worked like a charm. I learned dozens of idiomatic formulations in a short time through those books.

aokoye wrote:Also I, for one, would be really interested in hearing more of your postmortem about exams. I'm very likely taking TestDaF in September after spending two months in Germany and Austria (I'm going to Freie Universtät Berlin's summer school for four weeks and then visiting a friend in Vienna). I'm very likely at a B2(.2) right now and am hoping to test into the C1 class this summer. I will likely never take the Goethe Institut C2 exam, but hearing you and others talk about it is both very interesting and useful.


Sure! I am unfortunately not familiar with TestDaF -- knew many people who took it, but I never looked at it myself, since I decided to go the Zertifikat path. But if you are already in the German-speaking world this summer, you've already got a huge advantage for your practice, as you know. I think if you are challenging yourself not just with things at your level, but above your level, you will make astronomical gains in your couple of months. The Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe is great for that, as mentioned. The level of detail is just amazing and even taught me shortcuts or rules that we never once touched upon in classroom work with the standard textbooks. I didn't earnestly focus on learning Nomen-Verb-Verbindungen until I was well underway at the C1 level; I wish I had started at B1. It would have made my expressions a lot richer a lot sooner. The lists of N-V-V in the back of classroom textbooks like Erkundungen C1 or C-Grammatik: Übungsgrammatik Deutsch als Fremdsprache, Sprachniveau C1/C2 (same publisher/authors) are a godsend for this.

If you have specific questions about particular challenges, I'm always happy to help. :)


Danke für den Tipp. Die Serie "Erkundungen" sitzt schon auf meinem Bücherregal und ich freue mich darauf, diese Bücher zu benutzen, wenn ich "Teach Yourself Enjoy German" fertigmache.

FWIW, here's a list of some Nomen-Verbverbindungen worth printing out.
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aokoye
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Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Mon May 08, 2017 6:42 am

schlaraffenland wrote:Glad to help! I have Sag's besser, Teil 1 and Teil 2, both by Hans Földeak. I've worked extensively out of Teil 1 but have done more of a buffet-style approach to Teil 2 so far, dipping in just where I needed to do so...I wanted to eradicate the discouraging feeling from getting so many (very simple, very precise) things wrong in those exercises. I made cloze deletion cards in Anki for all of the Nominalisierung exercises I got wrong -- "You got me this time, but you're never gonna fool me again if I see you in the wild!" -- and it worked like a charm. I learned dozens of idiomatic formulations in a short time through those books.
...
I didn't earnestly focus on learning Nomen-Verb-Verbindungen until I was well underway at the C1 level; I wish I had started at B1. It would have made my expressions a lot richer a lot sooner. The lists of N-V-V in the back of classroom textbooks like Erkundungen C1 or C-Grammatik: Übungsgrammatik Deutsch als Fremdsprache, Sprachniveau C1/C2 (same publisher/authors) are a godsend for this.

Somehow I totally missed this post but thank you for replying. I actually have C-Grammatik sitting on my bookshelf right now. I haven't gotten a chance to really look through it given my schedule with school but thanks for the advice about the Nomen Verb Verbindungen. I'll probably put those into Anki, Quizlet, or Memrise. I am definitely going to try to take full advantage of being in Germany and Austria this summer. I'll be there for exactly 2 months before I take the test and intend on speaking German 99% of the time making exceptions for emergencies, situations where I'm dealing with really important information, and emailing/skyping friends in the US (which will be important but minimal given the time difference). The no English most of the time rule in Austria will be easier because a. my friend's house mates both teach DaZ and b. apparently we'll be visiting her parents and her stepfather is very very self conscious about his English.
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Re: German group

Postby smallwhite » Mon May 08, 2017 7:11 am

Chung wrote:Danke für den Tipp. Die Serie "Erkundungen" sitzt schon auf meinem Bücherregal und ich freue mich darauf, diese Bücher zu benutzen, wenn ich "Teach Yourself Enjoy German" fertigmache.


(What would be a nice way to present this?)

Forum Rules
All posts should be in English, apart from the multilingual rooms, logs and challenges, where other languages are allowed.

German group
Rules:

2.The langauge of this thread will be unfortunately English, for the same practical reasons Iguanamnon described well in the Spanish group thread. Of course German posts are welcome, but provide a translation or overview for the beginners among us.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue May 09, 2017 3:38 am

aokoye wrote:Somehow I totally missed this post but thank you for replying. I actually have C-Grammatik sitting on my bookshelf right now. I haven't gotten a chance to really look through it given my schedule with school but thanks for the advice about the Nomen Verb Verbindungen. I'll probably put those into Anki, Quizlet, or Memrise. I am definitely going to try to take full advantage of being in Germany and Austria this summer. I'll be there for exactly 2 months before I take the test and intend on speaking German 99% of the time making exceptions for emergencies, situations where I'm dealing with really important information, and emailing/skyping friends in the US (which will be important but minimal given the time difference). The no English most of the time rule in Austria will be easier because a. my friend's house mates both teach DaZ and b. apparently we'll be visiting her parents and her stepfather is very very self conscious about his English.


It sounds like you're really set as far as ideal circumstances for rapid progress this summer. :) Have fun! I wish I were heading back over there, too!

I love C-Grammatik. It's just amazing. I've meant for a long time to work systematically through it, but I have never given it the proper time. Still, it's great just for picking out something specific you want to drill, too, as you'll certainly have noticed. The Nomen-Verb-Verbindung sections and Konjunktiv II exercises were particularly helpful.
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gsbod
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Re: German group

Postby gsbod » Tue May 09, 2017 8:26 pm

All the recent activity here has really helped to motivate me to pull out the grammar books and start tidying up my German (probably the single most important thing I could do right now to improve my level). So thanks to you all for that!

Could anyone share any tips for dealing with one particularly troubling German problem - the plural. Although I have managed to learn noun genders reasonably successfully, I have really struggled to assimilate plural forms. It feels like there are just too many possibilities and not enough hard and fast rules to be able to cheat myself there, and yet rote learning hasn't worked particularly well for me for plurals despite it working on the noun genders.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue May 09, 2017 10:08 pm

gsbod wrote:Could anyone share any tips for dealing with one particularly troubling German problem - the plural. Although I have managed to learn noun genders reasonably successfully, I have really struggled to assimilate plural forms. It feels like there are just too many possibilities and not enough hard and fast rules to be able to cheat myself there, and yet rote learning hasn't worked particularly well for me for plurals despite it working on the noun genders.


Do you learn your vocab with flash cards? If so, what do your entries for nouns look like? For every single noun card, I always note the singular and plural forms up 'til this day, no matter how obvious they may be after having learned thousands of words ("die Schönheit, die Schönheiten, f."). When I study these cards, I mutter both forms aloud (behind my hand, if I'm on public transport ;) ). If no plural form exists, I make sure to note that as follows: "der Bü­ro­be­darf (m. sg.)", and then I know I shouldn't go trying to pluralize it. In other words, tying the plural form of each word inextricably to the singular, and repeating them in tandem, seems to have ingrained the correct plurals into my mind after some time.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Tue May 09, 2017 10:16 pm

Prohairesis wrote:One last thing I wanted to ask you was whether, generally speaking, there's a big difference between the C1 and C2 exams ? I do realize my question may seem to contain a contresens, but it's a question I've been asking myself for quite a while. I know that depending on the language and exam board, the differences and difficulties between the two levels may vary. But what is the distinguishing factor between the two levels ? I've read the official CEFR criteria, but they only confuse me more.


Further reflection on the differences between the Goethe-Zertifikat C1 and C2 exams...

To build upon what we were saying about infuriatingly elusive multiple-choice answers: I feel like the exams up until the C1 level (inclusive) embody the question, "Are you at level B1/B2/C1?", and there is a simple, yes/no answer to that which is reflected in the multiple-choice questions. If your vocabulary is extensive enough, you'll be able to differentiate instantly between choosing "eigenartig," "eigenmächtig", "eigentlich," or "eigenwillig" as the answer to a test question (this happened to me on my C1!). If you know the meaning of each of these words firmly, you can't possibly confuse them in context. There's nothing weird going on behind the scenes here. Things mean what they mean, and you know them or you don't.

Before I went into the C2 preparation, I thought that its fundamental challenge came down to something similar to the previous exams, like, "Are you at level C2? (Y/N)", or, "Are you fluent? (Y/N)" (And we could, of course, debate how you define fluency.) But it wasn't that at all, and that's what made it so frustrating to acclimate oneself to the exam. I may have mentioned this story before to Prohairesis: Before my C2 prep class, I had never seen so many intelligent, capable adults reduced to tears in a public setting. Some classmates had lived in the German-speaking world for decades. Some had bachelor's or even master's degrees in German. And still, lots of us had wildly varying scores on our exam practice exercises, and we often couldn't ever figure out why our selections were wrong, even with the guidance of the teachers. We'd frequently complete an exercise and think, "Well, that really wasn't so bad at all! No, I wouldn't change any of my answers here. I'm pretty happy with what I've done, and I feel I can justify each answer clearly." Then we'd correct it and find that we only got 45% or 60% correct. The next day, it went the opposite direction: We'd complete an exercise with great misgivings and uncertainty, and -- 100% correct. It went like that for all of us the whole time. After a couple of weeks of this, I began to feel like I was an unwitting character in somebody's Absurdist play. That resigned approached actually helped me to embrace the notion that this exam was actually willkürlich -- random, arbitrary, almost cruel -- and that a lot of it would really come down to utter chance on the exam day.

In other words, the C2 exam doesn't ask, "Are you fluent?" Instead, it asks, "Just how fluent are you?" Fluency is not being tested here in a Y/N way, but rather, with an eye to the degree of fluency. Along those same lines, the American SAT obviously doesn't test whether you know the 26 letters of the English alphabet and can write your name. Those things are assumed to be the utter bare minimum, so much so that we don't even give them a second thought. In this way, the C2 doesn't test whether you're fluent. It assumes you've approached the exam only after having acquired a comfortable degree of fluency. Then it attempts to blow huge shotgun holes in your conception of your own level of fluency. :lol:

When I was preparing for the C2, I kept thinking about this clip from the TV show "30 Rock," which is dealing with a fake game show called "Homonym," in which it seems you can never win:
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