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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Sun May 07, 2017 12:00 pm

gsbod wrote:I am nowhere near C2 yet, but I could still totally relate to this! I have been exposed to a number of practice tests at B1/B2 levels, both through a B1 class I have done and my own use of practice tests to confirm comprehension levels and in pretty much every test I have tried, there is always at least one question where you cannot be certain what the answer is supposed to be, no matter how well you understand the text itself. I have always felt like this must be down to some kind of "German logic", where there must be something going on outside the text which is selbstverständlich to the test writers but a mystery to test takers like me! I complained about this to my teacher who was somewhat dismissive and claimed that there must be some detail within the text I don't fully understand, which is generally a fair assumption to make of a student in a B1 class - and I am aware from my experience with JLPT tests for Japanese comprehension that being able to select the correct answer often came down to correctly understanding the meaning of just one word in the whole text. I felt somewhat vindicated when we went through one of these troublesome texts as a class, confirmed that my understanding of the text was correct, however in order to answer the question at the end it was a case of "c and d are definitely wrong, if you assume x (which is not stated in the text) the answer must be a but if you don't it will be b" - so I answer b but the correct answer is a.


Exactly this, right down to the dismissive teacher :lol:
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Re: German group

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 07, 2017 2:56 pm

schlaraffenland wrote:
gsbod wrote:I am nowhere near C2 yet, but I could still totally relate to this! I have been exposed to a number of practice tests at B1/B2 levels, both through a B1 class I have done and my own use of practice tests to confirm comprehension levels and in pretty much every test I have tried, there is always at least one question where you cannot be certain what the answer is supposed to be, no matter how well you understand the text itself. I have always felt like this must be down to some kind of "German logic", where there must be something going on outside the text which is selbstverständlich to the test writers but a mystery to test takers like me! I complained about this to my teacher who was somewhat dismissive and claimed that there must be some detail within the text I don't fully understand, which is generally a fair assumption to make of a student in a B1 class - and I am aware from my experience with JLPT tests for Japanese comprehension that being able to select the correct answer often came down to correctly understanding the meaning of just one word in the whole text. I felt somewhat vindicated when we went through one of these troublesome texts as a class, confirmed that my understanding of the text was correct, however in order to answer the question at the end it was a case of "c and d are definitely wrong, if you assume x (which is not stated in the text) the answer must be a but if you don't it will be b" - so I answer b but the correct answer is a.


Exactly this, right down to the dismissive teacher :lol:


This is extremely common in all the multiple choice tests, not just in languages. Welcome to medicine. A classical examples back from histology tests: What does this type of cell produce? And you could choose a wrong answer because "A is wrong. Yes, it does produce this, but it is not typical." Or, you chould choose another answer and hear "A is right, it is not typical, but the cell does produce a tiny bit of this indeed." :-D

It is even more difficult in languages and humanities in general, I'd say.

schlaraffenland wrote:Of course, who cares what some foreign test-taker sitting in a room in Frankfurt thinks? Nobody. At the end of the day, it all comes down to whether one can think like the test writers, anticipate their logic, and apply it to the answer choices, however poorly suited some of the answers seem.

Your academic background will help you enormously with the C2. It is, as one of our teachers put it, a "bildungsnah" exam. A person who doesn't already enjoy spending hours each month reading Der Spiegel, SZ Langstrecke, GEO, etc., will have a miserable gap to bridge in preparation. A person not up on current events and the broader concerns floating around in contemporary German society will also have a lot of remedial work to do.

That's the other principal difference between the C1 and the C2, I'd say: A person could conceivably sit and pass the C1 exam right at the end of finishing a C1-level course sequence at the Goethe-Institut, hot off the presses. I saw a few people do this fresh out of C1.2, and several passed. But it generally wasn't a strong pass, more like an average of 72%. With the C2, however, it simply doesn't appear possible to try the same tack. There is too much to be absorbed after the completion of C1 to be able to pop into a month or two of full-time C2-level work and pass the exam after that, to say nothing of taking the time to further develop one's Sprachgefühl. One acquaintance of mine was determined to pass the C2 in Munich after one month of C2-level instruction... he failed the exam five consecutive months as he kept trying. But he did pass eventually, just not on the one- or two-month timeline he had envisioned for himself.

...

I have heaps more postmortem stuff I could say about the exams, but I'll keep quiet in the interest of everyone's sanity, and out of interest for what others add. If you ever have further specific questions, just shoot. :)


I totally agree about academic background being important. In my DALF C2 (my German is really low now, but I hope to get to the C levels one day), I was so grateful for having a good general education and having "remade it" in French. It solved the whole "what should I write/say about this issue?" and left me more brain power just for thinking of "how to write it". It gave me the vocabulary (never underestimate sci-fi btw), and it gave me the overall idea of how to argument for or against the issue at hand.

It is interesting to hear about the difference between C1 and C2. In the French exam, the writing is perhaps even more difficult at C1. That was one of my reasons to choose C2 in the end. It is interesting the German exams trully respect the level ladder.

I would be very interested in your heaps of postmortem stuff! Do you have experience with the B2 exam too?
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aokoye
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Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Sun May 07, 2017 3:12 pm

schlaraffenland wrote:Oh! I know you've said you're not so big on working through a traditional textbook. But I have to speak up for the amazing Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe: Deutsch als Fremdsprache (ISBN: 978-3192074486) and the Sag's besser workbooks, all from Hueber (and purchased in Freiburg!). Working through those books systematically starting at the B2 level on my own kicked my ass hardcore. Nothing else brought me such a dramatic improvement as those books for the amount of time invested.

I have heaps more postmortem stuff I could say about the exams, but I'll keep quiet in the interest of everyone's sanity, and out of interest for what others add. If you ever have further specific questions, just shoot. :)

Thank you for this post but especially the recommendations of Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe and Sag's besser. You're the second person here who has strongly recommended Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe, which I suppose means I should actually start using it ;) I'm pretty sure it will also kick my ass but I am in no doubt that it'll be useful. Which Sag's besser books did you use? All of them or just a few?

Also I, for one, would be really interested in hearing more of your postmortem about exams. I'm very likely taking TestDaF in September after spending two months in Germany and Austria (I'm going to Freie Universtät Berlin's summer school for four weeks and then visiting a friend in Vienna). I'm very likely at a B2(.2) right now and am hoping to test into the C1 class this summer. I will likely never take the Goethe Institut C2 exam, but hearing you and others talk about it is both very interesting and useful.
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Re: German group

Postby Systematiker » Sun May 07, 2017 4:16 pm

The Goethe C2 exam having these idiosyncrasies that have been mentioned, like the expectations of what you know in and around the culture or implicit information in the questions is, I think, an artifact of the history of German exams and the switch to pure CEFR levels. If memory serves, the ZOP used to be the C2 exam whe they first started putting levels on them, with the KDS and GDS beyond it. Now, of course, they call the C2 the GDS, and there are still some vestiges of the knowledge expected for the old GDS demanded in the C2 (remember, the GDS used to serve in some countries in lieu of university preparation for being a German teacher!). As a result, the present Goethe C2 is probably a bit tougher than it should be as a C2 exam compared across the board (but it won't be the struggle that the old KDS or GDS were, so count your blessings).
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Re: German group

Postby AlOlaf » Sun May 07, 2017 4:44 pm

schlaraffenland wrote:Oh! I know you've said you're not so big on working through a traditional textbook. But I have to speak up for the amazing Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe: Deutsch als Fremdsprache (ISBN: 978-3192074486) and the Sag's besser workbooks, all from Hueber (and purchased in Freiburg!).

I also derived great benefit from these books. In addition, I had a grammar epiphany as a result of working through two others: Essential German Grammar (ISBN 0-07-141338-3) in English and Lehr- und Übungsbuch der deutschen Grammatik (ISBN 978-3-19-007255-2) in German. But for a real C2-level challenge, nothing beats Hueber's Übungsgrammatik für Fortgeschrittene (ISBN 978-3-007448-8). This is what the C2 classes were using when I took the GDS-Prüfung in Frankfurt.
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Prohairesis
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Re: German group

Postby Prohairesis » Sun May 07, 2017 9:23 pm

Cavesa wrote:It is interesting to hear about the difference between C1 and C2. In the French exam, the writing is perhaps even more difficult at C1. That was one of my reasons to choose C2 in the end. It is interesting the German exams trully respect the level ladder.


As far as the writing component of the DALF C1 and C2 is concerned, I think the difference is two-fold. First, the writing task of the DALF C2 itself combines both the synthèse and the argumentative exercises of the DALF C1, meaning that in the same piece you may introduce arguments derived from your reading of the corresponding texts as well as your personal arguments. Combining the two tasks therefore gives you more freedom in giving your opinion on the subject, where normally you would be penalized for it in the DALF C1.

Second, it is interesting to remember that the DALF C2 pairs up the corresponding production and comprehension skills. This means that instead of the reading and writing components being marked out of 25 each, the reading and writing components are both marked out of a total 25 points. This makes it either much easier or that much more difficult for you to score high, since the number of points out of 25 you obtain is then multiplied by 2 (to give a score out of a total 50 points).

So content-wise, I would agree with you that the DALF C1 is more challenging, whereas the format of the DALF C2 is such that it is more difficult to predict the kind of score you end up with. With that in mind, I would say that, in terms of the general quality of written and spoken language expected from the candidate, the C2 is more demanding.
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Re: German group

Postby Cavesa » Sun May 07, 2017 10:36 pm

Prohairesis wrote:
Cavesa wrote:It is interesting to hear about the difference between C1 and C2. In the French exam, the writing is perhaps even more difficult at C1. That was one of my reasons to choose C2 in the end. It is interesting the German exams trully respect the level ladder.


As far as the writing component of the DALF C1 and C2 is concerned, I think the difference is two-fold. First, the writing task of the DALF C2 itself combines both the synthèse and the argumentative exercises of the DALF C1, meaning that in the same piece you may introduce arguments derived from your reading of the corresponding texts as well as your personal arguments. Combining the two tasks therefore gives you more freedom in giving your opinion on the subject, where normally you would be penalized for it in the DALF C1.

Second, it is interesting to remember that the DALF C2 pairs up the corresponding production and comprehension skills. This means that instead of the reading and writing components being marked out of 25 each, the reading and writing components are both marked out of a total 25 points. This makes it either much easier or that much more difficult for you to score high, since the number of points out of 25 you obtain is then multiplied by 2 (to give a score out of a total 50 points).

So content-wise, I would agree with you that the DALF C1 is more challenging, whereas the format of the DALF C2 is such that it is more difficult to predict the kind of score you end up with. With that in mind, I would say that, in terms of the general quality of written and spoken language expected from the candidate, the C2 is more demanding.


Well, there is as well the issue of being able to choose the science or lettres version. Does any other exam have this feature? Do the German ones? I took science, because I find it easier and I think it is trully much more predictable and balanced in terms of difficulty and even content. The humanities version seems to include extremes quite often, eather subjects even the examinators consider difficult, or subject so stupid the candidates have a problem to put together enough text about the issue. I don't think they multiply anything, they simply put together a score somewhere on the 0-50 scale for each half of the exam. I'd say it makes sense, as the skills get coupled like this in the real life too, and it makes the exam a bit easier, as you don't need to worry that much about one skill destroying the result, or harder, if your production skills are so bad they cover the good comprehension skills.

As you did both, if I am not mistaken, do you think the German exams are a lot different from the French ones? Is there something significantly more difficult or easier about them?
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Re: German group

Postby aokoye » Sun May 07, 2017 10:54 pm

Cavesa wrote:Well, there is as well the issue of being able to choose the science or lettres version. Does any other exam have this feature? Do the German ones? I took science, because I find it easier and I think it is trully much more predictable and balanced in terms of difficulty and even content. The humanities version seems to include extremes quite often, eather subjects even the examinators consider difficult, or subject so stupid the candidates have a problem to put together enough text about the issue. I don't think they multiply anything, they simply put together a score somewhere on the 0-50 scale for each half of the exam. I'd say it makes sense, as the skills get coupled like this in the real life too, and it makes the exam a bit easier, as you don't need to worry that much about one skill destroying the result, or harder, if your production skills are so bad they cover the good comprehension skills.

TELC offers a C1 exam, a C1 Hochschule exam (which is accepted at some universities - at least half of the one's I'm looking at in Germany), as well as a B2·C1 Medizin exam. Additionally TestDaF (and TELC's C1 Hochschule Prufüng) easily differentiates itself from the Goethe B2 and C1 exams (as well as the "regular" Telc C1) because it is focused on academic language. That isn't exactly the same as a science version and an letters version, rather it's "general language" vs academic language. I suspect all of the DSH tests are similar in this regard. For me this makes things easier because reading things like academic or at the very least non-fiction texts in German is something I prefer over novels and I enjoy listening to things like BR's radioWissen.
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schlaraffenland
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Re: German group

Postby schlaraffenland » Sun May 07, 2017 11:20 pm

Cavesa wrote:I totally agree about academic background being important. In my DALF C2 (my German is really low now, but I hope to get to the C levels one day), I was so grateful for having a good general education and having "remade it" in French. It solved the whole "what should I write/say about this issue?" and left me more brain power just for thinking of "how to write it". It gave me the vocabulary (never underestimate sci-fi btw), and it gave me the overall idea of how to argument for or against the issue at hand.


Exactly! The more life experience one can draw on, the better. It's neat that even sci-fi helped you with the DALF C2 :D

Cavesa wrote:I would be very interested in your heaps of postmortem stuff! Do you have experience with the B2 exam too?


Sure! I passed the Goethe-Zertifikat B1, B2, C1, and C2 exams. I did the B exams on a whim, registering right beforehand, just because I was curious about where I stood, and so I actually didn't formally prepare for them and was scarcely acquainted with the format beforehand. That would be my first piece of advice: Know the format like the back of your hand and practice every piece of B2-Zertifikat material you can get your hands on. :oops: But I doubt most people are as foolhardy as I was in that respect. Specifics in addition to that:

* To do well on the grammar-correction sections, one not only has to have a firm grasp on the grammar, but also a keen eye for mistakes, naturally. I would've prepared better for this by reading more real-life internet forums in German on random topics where the writing is more casual and errors abound -- video game forums, health questions, complaints about a particular electronic product -- and interrogating myself about the authors' mistakes. Why is this wrong? What would I have done? (e.g., there should have been a comma before the author started this Nebensatz; this preposition takes the Dativ, not the Akkusativ)

* The bit where you have to listen to a conversation and note important details can certainly throw you for a loop if you don't feel so comfortable with listening comp. I would have prepared more for this by listening to German news radio and noting rapidly the "who, what, when, where, why" of a story as it is reported. They'll speak more quickly on the radio than on the exam CD, so it's a good sort of overachiever practice. It's important to train the ability to pick out the details rapidly and accurately.

* When it comes to the oral presentation sections: First, Redemittel are important. Get used to practicing and prefacing your statements with the things all the test books provide, like, "Ginge es nach mir, ..." Have two or three that you can fall back on without batting an eyelash, both to express agreement as well as to object or to turn the conversation in another direction. Also, don't forget that the activities for this section ask you to address your partner, not the exam proctors. :lol: Time and time again during class or during the exam, I watched my interlocutor as he/she completely forgot that I existed and turned toward the two proctors to present his/her topic to them, when in fact the task was to present the topic to the other test-taker. Of course, this happened totally due to nerves on the part of my partners. So, master your nerves enough to ignore the proctors completely and pretend like you're just having a nice chat with your partner!

* As for the writing, one of my teachers told us that one of the most common mistakes in writing at the B-level is wanting to show off, mixing registers, and therefore producing something rather awkward and unidiomatic. He told us to avoid trying to sound fancy just to show that we had learned a verb like "er­ör­tern" the previous week, and instead to write very simply, very clearly, but also very correctly. Conjunctions and connectors are really important. The letter/Stellungnahme/etc. doesn't have to contain million-dollar words, but it should have a couple of appropriately deployed Nomen-Verb-Verbindungen. It's most important that what is used be used accurately and with confidence. True of any level, of course.

That's what comes to mind off the top of my head. If you have more specific questions, I'm happy to oblige :) I hope one day to sit the DALF C2 in French as well, though that's a long way off... you and Prohairesis are good inspirations there!
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Re: German group

Postby Systematiker » Sun May 07, 2017 11:27 pm

AlOlaf wrote:
schlaraffenland wrote:Oh! I know you've said you're not so big on working through a traditional textbook. But I have to speak up for the amazing Übungsgrammatik für die Oberstufe: Deutsch als Fremdsprache (ISBN: 978-3192074486) and the Sag's besser workbooks, all from Hueber (and purchased in Freiburg!).

I also derived great benefit from these books. In addition, I had a grammar epiphany as a result of working through two others: Essential German Grammar (ISBN 0-07-141338-3) in English and Lehr- und Übungsbuch der deutschen Grammatik (ISBN 978-3-19-007255-2) in German. But for a real C2-level challenge, nothing beats Hueber's Übungsgrammatik für Fortgeschrittene (ISBN 978-3-007448-8). This is what the C2 classes were using when I took the GDS-Prüfung in Frankfurt.


I second the recommendation of the Übungsgrammatik für Fortgeschrittene with all my heart. I think I've recommended it elsewhere as well - it's ideal.
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