How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

This is a room for the discussion of travel plans or experiences and the culture of places you have visited or plan to visit.
User avatar
Xenops
Green Belt
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Languages: English (N), French (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?p=48718#p48718
x 525
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby Xenops » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:34 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:zenmonkey is offering a lot of good advice here.

Xenops- Your comments regarding Scandanavian countries I believe it was, or perhaps Norway more specifically having a possibly even a better quality of life than the U.S. came across slightly naive to me. And I mean no disrespect to yourself or the United States, but I can assure you there are many other countries with a better quality of life than the U.S. This link below ranks the U.S. as tenth.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

On another note, emmigrating can be complicated. You need to make some kind of an assessment imo as above to come up with your short-list of countries, then figure out which one country you want to go for and, well, go for it! Btw I have heard that education for foreign university students in Norway can be free to attract foreign students. Why? What's so bad about Norway? It's expensive! (if you're not working there). Whether this hearsay is true, I cannot confirm. If you're interested in European languages, get into one EU country, tick all the boxes, do the time, enough to get a passport, then the rest of the EU is your oyster! Good luck!


Guilty as charged--I mean no disrespect to folk of other realms with my naivete. Most Americans are very biased toward the U.S., and it's hard to get objective views on the actual quality of life.

Thank you for the link: I had seen an outdated-one on Wikipedia, and I didn't know there was an recent one. According to the list, all of my prospective countries are below the U.S. ;) Indeed, I would have to consider what is important, and go from there. Safety is a concern, as I'm a young, single female.

Thank you for your thoughts.:)

Ogrim wrote:
In Norway you do not pay any tuition fees at all at state-run universities, only a fee of about 80 USD per semester which goes to finance the university's student welfare organisation. This applies to Norwegian and foreign students alike. So basically university education is free.

However, life in Norway is expensive, so you need a decent amount of money to pay a rent, buy food etc. I know there exist various grant possibilities for students from abroad, so maybe worth checking out if you are really intersted.

Why does Norway want to attract foreign students? This article from University World News gives an interesting overview of what is happening in the Nordic countries and partially answers that question. Another factor which the article does not mention is that Norwegian universities are not exactly at the top of the world university ranking. Oslo University is ranked as 132nd, and the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim is 251st.

Norway is not a member of the EU, but is part of the European Economic Area, so the freedom of movement for workers in the EU applies to Norway as well. However, immigration rules for non-EU citizens are quite strict. To live and work in Norway you normally need a job offer before moving to Norway, as you have to apply from your country. Check out the website of the Norwegian Directorate of Immigration if you want to learn more.


Thank you for your info, since you are a native there. :) I poked around on the Oslo University website, and it said I needed 12,500 in American dollars to ensure that I could found myself for a graduate degree. I would need to see if I would need this much for each year I'm there? Would they have grants for those entering the medical professions?

I also watched some videos about foreigners moving to Norway, and one mentioned that they would often go grocery shopping in Sweden because it's cheaper. :o Why would Sweden be that much cheaper?

Thank you again for the input. :) One more question: would you recommend a foreigner to move there?

To verdastelo, the only advice I know right now is: save as much money as you can.

To anyone reading: is Denmark that much better than the other Scandinavian countries?
1 x
: 32 / 113 Assimil New French with Ease
: 6 / 52 French in Action


Check out my comic at: http://rosamondgrey.smackjeeves.com/

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Brown Belt
Posts: 1196
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B1-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=784
x 1831

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Oct 31, 2016 12:59 am

Xenops wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:zenmonkey is offering a lot of good advice here.

Xenops- Your comments regarding Scandanavian countries I believe it was, or perhaps Norway more specifically having a possibly even a better quality of life than the U.S. came across slightly naive to me. And I mean no disrespect to yourself or the United States, but I can assure you there are many other countries with a better quality of life than the U.S. This link below ranks the U.S. as tenth.

https://www.numbeo.com/quality-of-life/rankings_by_country.jsp

On another note, emmigrating can be complicated. You need to make some kind of an assessment imo as above to come up with your short-list of countries, then figure out which one country you want to go for and, well, go for it! Btw I have heard that education for foreign university students in Norway can be free to attract foreign students. Why? What's so bad about Norway? It's expensive! (if you're not working there). Whether this hearsay is true, I cannot confirm. If you're interested in European languages, get into one EU country, tick all the boxes, do the time, enough to get a passport, then the rest of the EU is your oyster! Good luck!


Guilty as charged--I mean no disrespect to folk of other realms with my naivete. Most Americans are very biased toward the U.S., and it's hard to get objective views on the actual quality of life.

Thank you for the link: I had seen an outdated-one on Wikipedia, and I didn't know there was an recent one. According to the list, all of my prospective countries are below the U.S. ;) Indeed, I would have to consider what is important, and go from there. Safety is a concern, as I'm a young, single female.

Thank you for your thoughts.:)

Ogrim wrote:
In Norway you do not pay any tuition fees at all at state-run universities, only a fee of about 80 USD per semester which goes to finance the university's student welfare organisation. This applies to Norwegian and foreign students alike. So basically university education is free.

However, life in Norway is expensive, so you need a decent amount of money to pay a rent, buy food etc. I know there exist various grant possibilities for students from abroad, so maybe worth checking out if you are really intersted.

Why does Norway want to attract foreign students? This article from University World News gives an interesting overview of what is happening in the Nordic countries and partially answers that question. Another factor which the article does not mention is that Norwegian universities are not exactly at the top of the world university ranking. Oslo University is ranked as 132nd, and the Norwegian University of Science and Technology in Trondheim is 251st.

Norway is not a member of the EU, but is part of the European Economic Area, so the freedom of movement for workers in the EU applies to Norway as well. However, immigration rules for non-EU citizens are quite strict. To live and work in Norway you normally need a job offer before moving to Norway, as you have to apply from your country. Check out the website of the Norwegian Directorate of Immigration if you want to learn more.


Thank you for your info, since you are a native there. :) I poked around on the Oslo University website, and it said I needed 12,500 in American dollars to ensure that I could found myself for a graduate degree. I would need to see if I would need this much for each year I'm there? Would they have grants for those entering the medical professions?

I also watched some videos about foreigners moving to Norway, and one mentioned that they would often go grocery shopping in Sweden because it's cheaper. :o Why would Sweden be that much cheaper?

Thank you again for the input. :) One more question: would you recommend a foreigner to move there?

To verdastelo, the only advice I know right now is: save as much money as you can.

To anyone reading: is Denmark that much better than the other Scandinavian countries?


Thanks for your considerate reply Xenops,

Despite me having discussed them and provided a link to one, I would take those qualtify of life listings with a grain of salt. You need to take your profession and if safety is a major strong point when considering your country of choice, into consideration, then consider which country is better for your profession and is the safest, then mix that in with other remaining factors.

The thing is, my wife and I discussed this briefly last night. We do not agree from our subjective stance, that the United States deserves to be ranked as tenth. It should (in our opinions) be much lower on the list. Additionally, as these lists take average wage into consideration, you're better off comparing based on your profession. My wife and I are nurses, so if we created our own list, it might be something like- best countries in the world for nurses who like to live closer to nature where possible, eat organic food and experience learning a European language. Then the list changes dramatically. So if you can do some reading on which countries might be better to work in regarding your chosen profession, this could be a good topic for research. Some countries are desperate for certain professionals and provide advantages for those wishing to immigrate. Every country has different rules and ought to be researched.

Finally. I commented once on the world happiness index and a fellow forum member here, a native of Denmark (Denmark ranked number 1), stated that he wouldn't put too much emphasis on such lists as the experience really is subjective to a large degree, and he didn't necessarily agree Denmark should/shouldn't be ranked number 1. Also, with Australia being ranked 2nd or 3rd on the list I sent to you on quality of life, I would not agree it should be quite as high, and with my Australian friend moving back to Norway with her family and having explained the contrast, I would recommend Norway, but you must begin learning the language. I have visited once, it was extremely expensive, but a beautiful and peaceful country. Believe me though, if you do learn another language the experience will be so much richer (imo) than simply going to an English speaking country (the challenge will be worth it). Still, Norway is very expensive (perhaps the most in Europe) and if life does look very good, you still need to be able to weather the initial storm (perhaps as you study) and survive to be able to reach the target. Again, I wish you luck and I want to finally add, take all my input with a grain of salt as well, as you need to find what's right for you!
2 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2200
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish+ (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German+, Italian+
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian, Czech; Romanian+, Galician; Danish, Swedish
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Chaucer's English
+ means exploring the dialects/variants
x 2714
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby Serpent » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:13 am

There should be some separate rankings concerning sexism, harrassment, the glass ceiling etc...
5 x
: 2 / 40 Budva na pjenu od mora: 3rd season (Croatian/Montenegrin)
LyricsTraining now offers Catalan, Turkish and Japanese romaji

whatiftheblog
Orange Belt
Posts: 160
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2016 3:29 am
Languages: English (N), Russian (N), French (C1?), Spanish (~B1)
x 408
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby whatiftheblog » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:22 am

Serpent wrote:There should be some separate rankings concerning sexism, harrassment, the glass ceiling etc...


I agree with this and with the other posts suggesting caution when considering "quality of life" indices - as someone who used to compile indices, I can say that they're extremely easy to manipulate, particularly when it's an online publication with no claims of objectivity ;) My quality of life is enhanced when I can visit the places I want to visit for €30 and not $1,000; someone else may prefer to live on 40 acres in Nevada and build equity in real estate. "Quality of life" is a very, very individual thing, not least because it's impossible to account for all of the different variables - institutional discrimination, access to services or lack thereof, etc. We in the US generally make more, but we also spend more for a variety of reasons. The question of disposable income is incredibly subjective as well. In short, I wouldn't assign too much significance to these things.
2 x
Hours of actually speaking: 21 / 120 21 / 120
Words written for Output Challenge: 6000 / 50000 6,000 / 50,000

User avatar
Xenops
Green Belt
Posts: 394
Joined: Mon Nov 30, 2015 10:33 pm
Location: U.S.A.
Languages: English (N), French (beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?p=48718#p48718
x 525
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby Xenops » Mon Oct 31, 2016 1:35 am

Serpent wrote:There should be some separate rankings concerning sexism, harrassment, the glass ceiling etc...


I would be interested in rankings of certain attitudes toward topics.

Another question for you peeps: where would I start with Norwegian learning? I poked about the HTLAL site, and this was the best I could find: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=19352&PN=1 I did find some promising Youtube channels.
0 x
: 32 / 113 Assimil New French with Ease
: 6 / 52 French in Action


Check out my comic at: http://rosamondgrey.smackjeeves.com/

User avatar
zenmonkey
Blue Belt
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew (A0), Italian (A1), Ladino (A0), (Yiddish, Portuguese) ...
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/vi ... f=15&t=859
x 704
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby zenmonkey » Mon Oct 31, 2016 7:39 am

Personally, I put almost no faith in these lists as they are statistical assemblages and won't really reflect your personal experience. It won't really help the individual make the most of a place but certainly provides a good excuse of being miserable somewhere. "xxx is only ranked 138th so no wonder you hate it, there is so much bad yyy."

The top twenty countries are similar enough that individual variants will matter more than frank listings on an article. What you make of it and how you manage your own situation matters more than "Finland vs Norway".
4 x
inconsistency incarnate
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com

User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Brown Belt
Posts: 1196
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B1-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=784
x 1831

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Oct 31, 2016 8:39 am

zenmonkey wrote:Personally, I put almost no faith in these lists as they are statistical assemblages and won't really reflect your personal experience. It won't really help the individual make the most of a place but certainly provides a good excuse of being miserable somewhere. "xxx is only ranked 138th so no wonder you hate it, there is so much bad yyy."

The top twenty countries are similar enough that individual variants will matter more than frank listings on an article. What you make of it and how you manage your own situation matters more than "Finland vs Norway".


Yep, I agree :)
0 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Green Belt
Posts: 430
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Strasbourg, France
Languages: Norwegian (N), English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (C1 passive), Latin (B1 passive) Russian (studying), Arabic (studying)
x 1114

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby Ogrim » Wed Nov 02, 2016 9:02 am

Xenops wrote:Thank you for your info, since you are a native there. :) I poked around on the Oslo University website, and it said I needed 12,500 in American dollars to ensure that I could found myself for a graduate degree. I would need to see if I would need this much for each year I'm there? Would they have grants for those entering the medical professions?

I also watched some videos about foreigners moving to Norway, and one mentioned that they would often go grocery shopping in Sweden because it's cheaper. :o Why would Sweden be that much cheaper?

Thank you again for the input. :) One more question: would you recommend a foreigner to move there?

To verdastelo, the only advice I know right now is: save as much money as you can.

To anyone reading: is Denmark that much better than the other Scandinavian countries?


I guess the figure of 12.500 USD is based on what is considered the minimum you need to live a decent, but modest life in Norway, approx. 1.000 USD a month. If I am not mistaken this is the sum the Norwegian state offers as support to people who have no income and do not qualify for unemployment benefits.

It is very difficult to get into medical school in Norway, as places are limited. In fact, a lot of Norwegians go to study medicine in countries like Germany and Hungary because they do not qualify to enter the career at Norwegian universities. I am not saying it is impossible for non-Norwegians to qualify, but it is probably even more difficult than for those having gone through school in Norway. The individual university will be able to offer more guidance.

Why is Sweden cheaper? There are several reasons for that: Sweden is a member of the EU, so it has adapted its tax system to that of neighbouring EU countries, e.g. when it comes to duties on alcohol, tobacco, cars etc. Theses taxes are lower than in Norway. Secondly, Swedish agriculture is more "efficient" than the Norwegian (bigger farms, more intensive exploitation etc.) and they also import e.g. meet from Denmark without extra tarrifs, due to the EU customs union. All this makes many (but not all) products cheaper in Sweden.

It is hard for me to recommend anyone to move there, as I decided to leave Norway 20 years ago, so I rather list som pros and cons and you will have to judge for yourself.

Pros: Norway has a high quality of life. Although expensive, salaries are good, there is hardly any unemployment, the state provides education for free including university, the health system is very good and everyone is taken care of without having to pay enormous sums in health insurance. Nature is beautiful and there is plenty of it :) . There is hardly any corruption and crime rates are low, overall you can feel secure. Norwegian society is mostly tolerant, and equality between women and men is higher than in most countries.

Cons: As mentioned, everything is expensive. Winter is long, cold and dark. (I guess that is OK if you are really into wintersports though.) There is not really any vibrant international community in Norway - maybe with the exception of the capital Oslo - so it may be perceived as a homogeneous, somewhat monotone place to live. This is a very personal opinion, but I find Norwegian society very conformist. Norwegians are not the easiest to make friends with - people are often reserved and not inclined to small-talk. You mentioned somewhere the issue of paying taxes. Yes, Norway has a progressive tax system: the more you earn the more you pay. I won't really say if that is good or bad though, as that would be entering into politics.

Is Denmark that much better than the other Scandinavian countries? My short answer is no ;) . However that is a totally subjective opinion, and in any case, I agree with those who say that ranking the countries in that way makes no sense. Denmark has many excellent things for it, but as in any country there are good things and not so good things, so finally it is a matter of taste.

Sorry if some of the above comes across as stereotyping, it is in any case a personal opinon, and if you ask another Norwegian she or he may come up with a totally different list of pros and cons.
6 x

Cavesa
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1656
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), English (C1), French (C2), Spanish (intermediate), German (somewhere on the path), Italian (beginner)
x 3881

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby Cavesa » Wed Nov 02, 2016 3:36 pm

Tell me which countries you want to win and I'll make you a quality list fiting your demand. :-D It is all about choosing the criteria. Denmark as the happiest country? Well, only until the moment you see them on the top of others lists, like the number of suicides or antidepressant usage. Really, everything is relative. Norway as the best quality of life? Well, ask either norwegians or immigrants who tried to change career, it is not that easy and being unable to change career is not making your life better despite the money. The US would however be on the top if you listed accessibility of popular culture (in terms of region restrictions, prices, and so on), that is actually one of the secondary criteria for me :-D. You define the criteria.

Ask locals what are the work conditions like, ask about the pay (the real pay, not the official tables), ask about the real world application of job related laws, ask about the necessary certification. I know people who lost their opportunity to work as doctors in France just because they found out about the ECN a bit too late. And it would be very stupid to trust the official Ministry issued tables, come to the Czech Republic, and trully expect to get a hospital contract with the official money for the official work time

There is nothing better than to ask people and to observe. That is one of the main points of Erasmus for me. Other good sources are foreign forums on the internet. Not just expats. But look up forums of people working in your field, and of local students (those are asking similar questions). And read their newspapers well and critically, read the comment sections, read the medical newspapers and such stuff. When it comes to medicine, never trust a single one source, always compare more as healthcare is a hot issue in most european countries right now.

Any medical profession is in demand in some countries. In Germany, they will take a doctor even with very weak German and give you courses and a translator for your first months, that is just an example. However, look behind the fasade. France would welcome many generalists and surely will make the conditions for immigration very foreign generalist friendly in the years to come. But why? They made such a hell of the job that few people want to do it. Would you? Hopefully, things are less rough for lab workers.

As a lab assistant, you may not be on the list of the crucially needed professions (despite the fact labs are a necessary part of modern medicine), but you are much freer to seek out jobs in the private sector. And the companies might help their new employee a lot. For example, there is a big pharmaceutical company that even takes pride in making most of their employers work abroad (for the same company) for a year, they really know all the bureaucratical stuff, they help them find appartments and anything. So, you might like to consider migrating to a company :-D

Housing. I can only confirm what was said about the French market and as well about the fact that not everything officially required must be unavoidable. For example, you need a French citizen as a garant, or deposit 12 months of rent in a french bank. Really funny, when you only want to rent the appartment for six months like me. But you can agree on something else with the other side, in most countries it is about the agreement of just the two concerned parties. The contract you sign is binding. However, it may take time to find a flat anyways. Airbnb is great for start, but it is a hell to get stuck at (I've recently heard tons of interesting stories from a guy that has been airbnbing for a few months now). But I got normal rent contract from my airbnb host after a month.

As we are both young women and students (and we are not the only ones on this forum by far of course): it is scary, but we must take into consideration our plans concerning the private life and founding a family. You should know the answer to questions like: Do I want kids? How many? Do I already have a man to found family with (will he come with me?) or will I be looking in the country? Could the cultural difference make relationships and raising a family extremely difficult? What are the conditions of maternity leave in the country and my field? What do families in the country look like? How is the care usually handled, are there mostly aupairs or grannies? At what age do children go to kindergarten? Would I like the future children to be raised and educated in the country? As it is foolish to think migrating and immediately having kids would be possible (the countries usually don't like parasites), am I willing to wait/work a few more years? At what age would I prefer to have children?

That is actually the worst part for me (except for the "will my loved one come with me?" issue). Those are scary subjects as making plans is difficult. Bureaucracy can be fought and in most countries, it is possible to win, given enough persistency. But you can't change the fact that having children after (or even having the first after 30) is more complicated and potentially dangerous (both women and men, contrary to popular belief. Old fathers mean risks for the child too). You cannot change the fact that in most countries, women are expected to be automatically the main caregivers and are accordingly disadvantaged at the job market (hey, this is where Sweden gets lots of positive points, one of the few systems counting with both parents actually parenting).

I am now considering only EU countries and fortunately I have never wanted to live in the UK.
I looked at the point system of Australia and NZ. I would need quite a luck to be taken in right after the university (and that is when I have to leave) and my boyfriend's chances would be extremely thin, even if we were married by then.
Canada is a bit like Australia, I'd say, but perhaps a bit more friendly. Actually, the dreaded French exam could be your advantage! It easily removes your competitors from the race, usually right at the beginning.
I am not considering the asian countries for various reasons. Too big cultural difference, too harsh working conditions in the countries I might think about.

Something I noticed: It is well worth it to look up the information concerning immigration to smaller countries. Smaller competition, different conditions, there might be your possible dream country writen on the world map in tiny letters.

If you wanted to move just temporarily for start and earn lots of money in just a few years, you might like to consider the Emirates or Saudi Arabia. Mostly nurses and doctors go there as far as I know, but they must need lab personnel as well. They pay more then well. But most foreign workers definitely wouldn't want to stay and live there. So, perhaps it could be an option to gain experience and money there for two or three years, and try a different country with a much richer CV.
2 x

User avatar
zenmonkey
Blue Belt
Posts: 550
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 7:21 pm
Location: Germany and France
Languages: Spanish, English, French trilingual - studying German (B2/C1), Hebrew (A0), Italian (A1), Ladino (A0), (Yiddish, Portuguese) ...
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.org/vi ... f=15&t=859
x 704
Contact:

Re: How Difficult Is It to Immigrate?

Postby zenmonkey » Wed Nov 02, 2016 4:02 pm

The private life stuff is important, don't underestimate it. But do remember that foreign places have also single boys and girls :D. The world may be your ocean.

For those commenting on medical school and medical fields, remember that a) these degrees can be very different - for example France has a limited number of positions as a physician or pharmacist studies regulated by the state but is more open on lab scientists which can come from many fields. Or, while Germany may need physicians, it is actually quite difficult (time wise) to get a degree equivalence if it isn't done beforehand. Practicing medicine in any country other than the one you are certified for is, initially, an administrative nightmare. This is also true for other regulated or certified careers - lawyers, bankers, etc. (and like, believe it or not, hairdresser in France.)

But that is just paperwork, it can be surmounted with patience and planning.
2 x
inconsistency incarnate
Go study! Publisher of Syriac, Aramaic, Hebrew alphabet apps at http://alphabetsnow.zyntx.com


Return to “Travel and Culture”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest