10000 srs challenge?

Ongoing language-learning challenges, and team challenge logs (but not individual logs)
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:12 pm

I mentioned Memrise because the system itself takes care of all calculations - it's harder to cheat if the testing skills involve typing, and not just self-assessment from 1 to 4.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby sfuqua » Mon Apr 18, 2016 3:54 pm

I'm sure memrise is great; I know many people here use it.

Are the SRS systems so different that they can't be in the same challenge?


I certainly would never win a sprint, but I probably could finish a marathon. I wouldn't mind being beaten by somebody who used an "easier" SRS setup.

I did a deck with about 15000 cards a couple of years ago, but I deleted and suspended a lot of cards as I went along. I never had more than about 4000 cards in active review.
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10K: 8226 / 10000 cards
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:36 pm

I tried Memrise for a short while but still added everything to Anki, which is where I want to keep track of my vocabulary. I'm not against challenges nor wild experiments (like learning 10 000 items), but if I were to study that number of words/sentences in isolation, I'd prefer to have some "control" over the deck, e.g. by gradually adding items as I encounter them in texts rather than just import a pre-made deck of 10 000 random entries which you might not have seen before - unless that's the idea of the challenge. But an entry can be a word, a sentence, a cloze deletion card - including image/audio/video... if the number at all refers to entries (and not minutes, reviews etc. which Cavesa wondered about).
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby rdearman » Mon Apr 18, 2016 6:52 pm

OK, little confused about what the rules would be, but I seem to be signing up for just about every torture session under the sun, Super Challenge, Output Challenge. So walk me through it?

For example I decide my deck is going to be Mandarin Sentences, and I generate 10,000 sentences yanked from a book. Happy days. So what is the challenge? To have reviewed all 10,000 sentences in 20 months?

So this means 10000/608 = 16.447 or basically 17 new cards per day, plus reviews of old cards. That sure does sound like drinking from a firehose! Checking around a bit I found this:
Mathematically, it will depend on the percentage of cards you get right. If you consistently answer 80% correct and add the same amount of cards each day, after 60 days, your workload will stabilize around 20 times the amount you add every day. So if you add 10 cards every day and get 80% correct, you can plan on answering approximately 200 cards every day.

So at the 17-20 card per day rate, you're going to be doing ~400 cards per day, every day! Based on my statistics then I'd say you're looking at about1-2 hours of anki per day.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby Tomás » Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:14 pm

rdearman wrote:So this means 10000/608 = 16.447 or basically 17 new cards per day, plus reviews of old cards. That sure does sound like drinking from a firehose! Checking around a bit I found this:
Mathematically, it will depend on the percentage of cards you get right. If you consistently answer 80% correct and add the same amount of cards each day, after 60 days, your workload will stabilize around 20 times the amount you add every day. So if you add 10 cards every day and get 80% correct, you can plan on answering approximately 200 cards every day.

So at the 17-20 card per day rate, you're going to be doing ~400 cards per day, every day! Based on my statistics then I'd say you're looking at about1-2 hours of anki per day.


This might be a worst-case scenario. I've consistently added 50 new cards a day for long periods, and do not have reviews that high. Even if I did, I can knock out 400 cards in 30-40 minutes. That said, sentence cards do take longer than single word cards to review.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby smallwhite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:47 am

Here are my calculations.

A card that you never get wrong: 6 reps during planting stage + 9 reps over 1st year, 2 reps over 2nd year.

I remember reading somewhere that the global accuracy for all users was 92%.
I'll be conservative and assume that you get 10% of your reps wrong.
So starting 10,000 cards ends up like doing 11,000 cards.

10,000 cards x 6 planting reps ... 1st day
11,000 cards x 9 watering reps ... 1st year
11,000 cards x 2 watering reps ... 2nd year
Total = 181,000 reps over 2 years

Memrise multiple choice cards take 6 secs to flip and flash and stuff.
6 secs x 181,000 reps
= 25 minutes per day

With Anki, you do fewer reps but let's just ignore that. Anki desktop typing cards used to take me 2 seconds each.
2 secs x 181,000 reps
= 8 minutes per day

I set up gestures in Anki app so I just tap the same spot on the screen both for flipping and for rating the card as "good". I didn't time myself but I just kept tapping away so maybe 1 second per card.
1 sec x 181,000 reps
= 4 minutes per day



Errata: 2 seconds per rep was actually achieved with my home-made Excel spreadsheet, not with Anki.
Last edited by smallwhite on Sun May 01, 2016 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby rdearman » Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:27 am

After a little research I found someone who claims to have done 10,000 cards. http://rs.io/anki-tips/

Image

So this would seem to indicate you'd average 280 reviews rather than my worst case 400 review estimate. However as near as I can tell this person created 10,000 cards and has done 100,000+ reviews, but doesn't appear to have reviewed all cards? If you look at the gragh you still see blue "learn cards".

So I'm inclined to argue you'd need to do at least 400 per day, adding 17-20 new cards per day. Ideally you'd have only one single deck.

What are the rules? I'd go for something like this:

1 deck of 10,000 cards of your choice.
20 months to review all cards.
No unseen cards at the end of the challenge. You'll have to have seen and reviewed at least once every card in the deck before the deadline. (Of course you might want to change this to 2 in order to avoid end of challenge cramming sessions)

With these three rules, it would allow people to vary the pressure of the firehose. For example you could cram 1000 cards per week at the begining and then just let them all come up again over time. In theory they should spread out as you find some easy and others hard.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby smallwhite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:40 pm

Adjusting my figures to use 600 days instead of 2 years:

6 reps 1st day
9 reps 1st year
1.3222 reps 2nd year

173,544 reps assuming 2 full years for every word (inapplicable)
116,772 reps assuming we can start learning a new word on the last day of the Challenge (applicable)

116,772 reps / 600 days = 195 reps per day

rdearman wrote:So I'm inclined to argue you'd need to do at least 400 per day, adding 17-20 new cards per day. Ideally you'd have only one single deck.


How did you come up with the figure 400? My figures assumed 6 planting reps in Memrise or 6 reps on the first day in Anki, then standard SRS scheduling with multiplier 2, then getting 1 out of every 10 reps wrong. Your 400 is 64% more than my 244. Where is the difference?
Last edited by smallwhite on Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby smallwhite » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:23 pm

rdearman wrote:What are the rules? I'd go for something like this:

1 deck of 10,000 cards of your choice.
20 months to review all cards.
No unseen cards at the end of the challenge. You'll have to have seen and reviewed at least once every card in the deck before the deadline. (Of course you might want to change this to 2 in order to avoid end of challenge cramming sessions)


I just realised that an SRS Challenge may not be what I need at this stage. I've crammed 5k words over the last six months so I won't be adding new words for a while, and these days I no longer water cards over 3 months old so I won't be watering much either :roll: Unless I wanderlust :twisted:

I suggest flexibility such as:
either 10k new cards
or 10k reviews
or some combination thereof
or 10k minutes

but a problem is: how can we make it easily measurable for everyone regardless of the SRS program / app used? What about the paper card in cardboard box people?
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Re: 10000 srs challenge?

Postby rdearman » Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:27 pm

smallwhite wrote:Adjusting my figures to use 600 days instead of 2 years:

6 reps 1st day
9 reps 1st year
1.3222 reps 2nd year

173,544 reps assuming 2 full years for every word (inapplicable)
146,772 reps assuming we can start learning a new word on the last day of the Challenge (applicable)

146,772 reps / 600 days = 244 reps per day

rdearman wrote:So I'm inclined to argue you'd need to do at least 400 per day, adding 17-20 new cards per day. Ideally you'd have only one single deck.


How did you come up with the figure 400? My figures assumed 6 planting reps in Memrise or 6 reps on the first day in Anki, then standard SRS scheduling with multiplier 2, then getting 1 out of every 10 reps wrong. Your 400 is 64% more than my 244. Where is the difference?


Based on a statement I found from an "anki guru" who believes that with 10 cards per day you'd end up with 200 reviews per day. I've gone back and looked at my current decks and based on 20 cards per day, I'm currently getting 100 reviews on those decks. So the figure of 200-250 is probably more correct than the statement I used earlier. So does 200 reviews per day actually hit the critieral I outlined? Will it let you see every card in a 10,000 deck, in 618 days time?
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