The Memory Thread

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
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coldrainwater
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Re: The Memory Thread

Postby coldrainwater » Thu May 04, 2017 6:22 am

When I restarted learning Spanish I think the underlying factor for me was probably a strong novelty seeking mechanism combined with a general love of words and of the written language. In the simplest case, I would let the thought train begin with a simple synonym search. For example, I would take a given but unknown word of arbitrary origin. From that, I would see what immediately surrounds and extends that word via synonym search. Invariably that would lead me to a wide, but unpredictable range of new learning that could be of any type. As long as it was Spanish I was reading, how far down the rabbit hole I went was not terribly vital. I would have quite a few browser tabs open (this should seem familiar to anyone who does internet research on a topic of interest). Thusly, I'd build a powerful context of interest and web of knowledge based on similarity (note how proximity, similarity, and familiarity often predict relationships as a random but comparable example). What might be slightly unique is that I might pick up 100 lexical terms (no exaggeration) instead of just a few and retain all of them to varying degrees (because they are in groups that 'I' deem interesting and seek completely of my own volition). In this, keep in mind that I am always directing the show. That sort of chunking would often do an end-around and I might know I have most of the words from a starting seed when that end-around happened. At that point, I would simply seek a new seed and the process of novelty seeking would begin anew. When a language is new and you know few words, you can pretty much go nuts and learn tons of them this way. The cool part is this remains true as you progress in a language as well. When I hit a simple topic like food, for instance, I might have ten browser tabs open making sure I was getting novel (and thus interesting) experiences. The simple trick was always to avoid boredom and create a challenge. Like others have noted in this thread, if the word was common, I would read it but with little care as I knew I'd see it 1000 times more. If a word was super-rare, that one was still a good seed. I would get it for free in a chunk of 100 other words (many of which were more common and thus had value). With the internet and decent google-fu, this is almost always possible.

I was trained in my earlier years as a scientist and we were taught specifically never to memorize. On a test for example, we were expected to be able to derive from first principles if given sufficient time. A small case for memorization was occasionally afforded in the event that the derivation would simply be too cumbersome. That manner of thinking and manner of problem-solving stayed with me over the years. In my recent Spanish studies, grammar held me back substantially, but I can remember being able to read Spanish in 2-3 months at a decent level and this was very rewarding (no doubt I used other study techniques as well but the acquisition of vocabulary was a nice helper).
Last edited by coldrainwater on Thu May 04, 2017 6:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Memory Thread

Postby zenmonkey » Thu May 04, 2017 6:27 am

Instead of memorising words or brute forcing these related concepts I try to visualise differences. You are talking about words that have similar meaning but are used contextually differently so learn them contextually.

He left his wallet on the table.
He took out his wallet and went to the cinema.
He went out all night.
He left her there.
he left her.
He left.

Il a laissé son portefeuille sur la table.
Il sortit son porte-monnaie et alla au cinéma.
Il est sorti toute la nuit.
Il l'a laissée là.
il la quitta.
Il est parti.

I tend to use drills then - same sentence with he/she/I etc... and story "back of mind" visualisation.
Drills are not really about 'memorising' but production, being able to quick produce the right words without struggling to find them.
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Carmody
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Re: The Memory Thread

Postby Carmody » Thu May 04, 2017 11:42 am

reineke »
I don't memorize vocabulary. Neither does my elderly mom.
Your statement plus Six people agreeing with you plus the fact you are Black belt suggests to me you very much know whereof you speak. So may I ask you to clarify the statement? When you read do you just guess word meaning based on context?

Thanks.
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Re: The Memory Thread

Postby reineke » Sun May 07, 2017 6:27 pm

Hi Carmody

I think it's in order to say that your premise is wrong. It's counterproductive to discuss learning from context vs rote vocabulary learning without first taking a look a your goals and learning approach. From other threads I gather that you would like to have words "at your fingertips" and that you seek "precision". This is partly driven by neoclassical notions of French being a very precise language. Your vocabulary learning approach seems to consist of grouping or herding words based on a theme and then learning them from a computer spreadsheet. I understand that you wanted to learn the "correct" translation for words like piste, rue, chemin, sentier etc.

When I hear the Italian word "pista" I may think of a race track, skiing, skating, fashion runways etc. or someone running down a street yelling the word. I need context.

Trying to understand something is not a bad approach. This may include trying to understand why different French words often get translated simply as "room". While I think people expend too much mental effort on things that can be picked up quite pleasantly through exposure, learning about words and their usage can also be a pleasant and profitable activity. On the other hand, trying to herd and bully words into one's brain may be counterproductive and actually lengthen one's total learning time. Words don't live in vacuum. They need to be repeatedly heard, read, written and spoken in context before one can approach anything resembling active mastery.

Studying a list of verbs that look and sound similar and that may express opposite states or actions is asking for trouble. Try coming up with a list that's a product of your reading and listening activities. Write the individual words and expressions down. If you hear something neat, talk into your phone and capture the expression using a speech-to-text app. Look up the expression online and investigate example sentences using a site like linguee. Write words and expressions down by hand into a notebook. Try using these words and expressions carefully but in a natural way. Don't cram six idioms into a single paragraph. If you are forcing production and you are likely to mangle a sentence in the process, have your writing corrected by someone. If you're dealing with verbs you can look up all sorts of exercises. Learn to use a dictionary. Things like:

"langage familier * informal language
langage très familier ** very informal language
langage vulgaire *** offensive language
emploi vieilli + old-fashioned term or expression
emploi archaïque..."

You had a great thread going over at Memorization and you

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5456&hilit=memorization

There you'll find some additional good advice about vocabulary learning.
Last edited by reineke on Mon May 08, 2017 12:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Carmody
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Re: The Memory Thread

Postby Carmody » Sun May 07, 2017 11:09 pm

(this was incorrectly posted in PM's Log: apologies.)

reineke

Thank you so much for your comprehensive, wise and patient answer. It is truly helpful.

You are obviously one very busy -and productive- man, so please feel free to drop this topic if you wish. I certainly don’t want to belabor it.

For starters, I totally agree with you when you point to my tendency to adhere to the “ neoclassical notions of French being a very precise language. “

However, yes, I do persist in thinking that the French language is more precise than American English which is my native language. In American, we usually just “go” somewhere. But the French would appear to have a long list of verbs to ‘just go somewhere.’

Verbs like:
aller, s’en aller, sortir, partir, s'éloigner, etc. appear to me to suggest greater precision.

And elsewhere:
porter, apporter, rapporter, apporter, emporter, remporter

Also all of their 15-16 verb tenses and/or moods suggest a sensitivity to language that most people speaking the American language just don’t use. Isn’t that more precise?

Lastly, the fact that the French even have a book like Bescherelle in existence has to suggest something re their concern for language. The closest we have is Strunk and White with their Elements of Style which is itself very different.

And the Académie française with the new orthography? America certainly does not have any academy issuing new orthographies. In America, our current President is proof positive that language and specificity of word usage just is not a major concern.

In summary, as a new comer to the forum and the language learning field, I do not suggest my position is the only correct one, but the body of evidence from my perspective certainly does suggest the French care more for their language than do the Americans.

Also your mention that my “ trying to herd and bully words into one's brain may be counterproductive and actually lengthen one's total learning time.” was also a very useful point for me to think on and to apply.

You, Anthony Lauder and others all emphasize the importance of patience, context and familiarity over time, so I will definitely work at my language learning from that perspective in the future.

Thanks again for your time and comments they are greatly appreciated.
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