Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

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eastallegheny
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Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby eastallegheny » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:44 am

I'm at a stage in my Spanish where, armed with a dictionary and the knowledge of grammar I have, I can get my point across (even if it isn't exactly pretty). What I'd really love to do is start learning some Spanish idioms, those phrases and sayings that don't translate word for word. Often I find that the English version of what I want to say is idiomatic, and that makes me think that translating it literally wouldn't exactly work.

A prime example is "don't get me started". I'd love to be able to say that in Spanish, but I just know that a literal translation would be clunky and wrong in Spanish... right?

I have googled, but honestly, I take those sorts of search results with a pinch of salt. I'd rather hear the answer from a native speaker or someone who has actually spent enough time in a Spanish speaking country to know for sure :)

Thanks in advance!
eastallegheny
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby emk » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:06 am

eastallegheny wrote:A prime example is "don't get me started". I'd love to be able to say that in Spanish, but I just know that a literal translation would be clunky and wrong in Spanish... right?

Welcome to the forum! And yes, your intuition is right. Idiomatic English phrases don't translate well to other languages. (Though thanks to the Sprachbund effect, there are occasionally some weird idioms that are almost identical in English and French.)

eastallegheny wrote:I have googled, but honestly, I take those sorts of search results with a pinch of salt.

This is also a good guess. :-) I've occasionally bought books with titles like "Street French" or "French Slang", and some of them are hilarious. They tend to be weirdly out of date, and encourage you to say things like "that's so groovy, dude." Sometimes, it's sort of the linguistic equivalent of bell-bottom jeans. Or they mix up slang from different groups and eras.

One relative good way to learn idiomatic expressions is to use native media. For example, my Spanish is extremely basic, but I learned it by watching the Spanish dub of Avatar, which contains a large amount of casual, spoken language. Obviously, if you just learn from one TV series, you might end up sounding funny. But if you learn from multiple TV series, popular websites, and books with lots of dialog, it will mostly average out.

If you build a base level of familiarity using native media, then you can safely turn to a resource like Linguee or WordReference.

Here's Linguee on "don't get me started". Linguee tends to work best for formal language, but looking at the search results here, there doesn't seem to be any consistent way to translate that English idiom into Spanish. This generally indicates that there is no consistent, popular Spanish idiom, at least not that translators typically choose.

Here are the results on WordReference. In this case, the dictionary entries are useless, but if you scroll to the bottom, you can see a section titled "Forum discussions with the word(s) 'don't get me started' in the title", which will probably be helpful.

Anyway, I hope this helps! These are the usual tricks I used when learning French, but maybe somebody can point out some better, Spanish-specific resources.
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eastallegheny
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby eastallegheny » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:09 am

Thank you for your reply! Yes, the linguistic equivalent of bell-bottom jeans is exactly the feeling I was trying to avoid. Two things I don't want to sound like: a textbook, or a sad grandfather trying to sound hip for the youngsters haha!
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby emk » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:22 am

eastallegheny wrote:Two things I don't want to sound like: a textbook, or a sad grandfather trying to sound hip for the youngsters haha!

Sadly, as a language learner, you can't avoid this completely. :-/ I find the best strategy to minimize the damage is to pretend that you're saying ridiculous things deliberately. For example, there was the time when I couldn't remember how to say "arrested" in French, so I said Il s'est fait choper par les flics "he got busted by the cops" instead. (Yeah, yeah. I'd been reading trashy websites and comics.) This unexpected expression made one of my French friends almost fall over laughing.

If you're going to say something like that, put on your best "I'm being deliberately ironic" look, and make a joke out of it. Sometimes it's the only defense!

(Similarly, if you learn your colloquial language from popular TV shows, you can always pretend it's a deliberate cultural reference to Game of Thrones or something. Never underestimate the power of sneakiness when using your L2.)
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby iguanamon » Tue Apr 25, 2017 11:32 am

Welcome to the forum! When you get a chance, have a look at our Spanish Group here on the forum. I'm surprised emk didn't mention translated comic books- Calvin and Hobbes, The Walking Dead, Blacksad, etc. Especially if you have the English originals they can be a great source of translated idioms. Also don't forget native comics in Spanish like Mafalda or the works of Andrés Palomino.

While there are plenty of books out there with idioms and their equivalent translations, adopting them without context can be hit or miss. As emk says, better to pick them up through context watching TV and reading.

¡Suerte!
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby s_allard » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:07 pm

eastallegheny wrote:I'm at a stage in my Spanish where, armed with a dictionary and the knowledge of grammar I have, I can get my point across (even if it isn't exactly pretty). What I'd really love to do is start learning some Spanish idioms, those phrases and sayings that don't translate word for word. Often I find that the English version of what I want to say is idiomatic, and that makes me think that translating it literally wouldn't exactly work.

A prime example is "don't get me started". I'd love to be able to say that in Spanish, but I just know that a literal translation would be clunky and wrong in Spanish... right?

I have googled, but honestly, I take those sorts of search results with a pinch of salt. I'd rather hear the answer from a native speaker or someone who has actually spent enough time in a Spanish speaking country to know for sure :)

Thanks in advance!
eastallegheny

There are two separate questions here that require different answers: 1) How do you go about learning Spanish idioms? and 2) How do I translate English idioms (e.g. Don't get me started) into Spanish.

The first question is pretty simple to answer but there is a little complication. Spanish distinguishes Refranes/Proverbios, Frases hechas and Modismos. I'll skip the distinctions here but there are many printed and electronic guides to this material if you look up these key words.

The big problem with this stuff is how to use it well. Basically, idioms are a form of figurative or metaphoric speech. There are two levels of meaning, the literal and the intended. Informal spoken Spanish, just like English, is highly idiomatic. I can only say that proper use of idioms is the hallmark of the highest level of proficiency. If you're way up, there go for it, but if not, you don't want to sound ridiculous trying to use some biblical reference while tripping over some basic grammar.

The second question of how to translate English idioms into Spanish idioms. This is really difficult. There may be some resources out there that I'm not aware of but I do think this is a bad strategy. Idioms don't often translate as idioms. Some may be similar in various languages, e.g. grab the bull by the horns, agarrar el toro por los cuernos, prendre le taureau par les cornes. Even here there are slight differences in the verbs used. Most of the time, idioms have forms unique to the language.

The big risk here is to unwittingly attempt to translate an idiom literally from one language to the other. This usually leads to disaster. The way to go about it is to step back and ask: What does this idiom really mean? or How is it used? Then go the target language and try to find how to convey similar meaning and see if there exists an idiomatic expression that covers the same ground.

For example, "Don't get me started" doesn't translate well word for word. Google translate says: No me empieces which is meaningless. But let's step back and see what this idioms means or how it is used in English. It's something along the lines of "There's so much - good or bad - I have to say about the the subject, but I don't have the time right now." We could translate this into Spanish. But does Spanish have some idiomatic way of saying the same thing? I don't know for sure but one expression in Latin American Spanish comes to mind: Ni se diga. It has more the meaning, "There's so much to say about the topic, it's self evident." Maybe this could do the job.
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby eastallegheny » Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:31 pm

For example, "Don't get me started" doesn't translate well word for word. Google translate says: No me empieces which is meaningless. But let's step back and see what this idioms means or how it is used in English. It's something along the lines of "There's so much - good or bad - I have to say about the the subject, but I don't have the time right now." We could translate this into Spanish. But does Spanish have some idiomatic way of saying the same thing? I don't know for sure but one expression in Latin American Spanish comes to mind: Ni se diga. It has more the meaning, "There's so much to say about the topic, it's self evident." Maybe this could do the job.


Thank you very much for this thoughtful and well-considered reply :) I really appreciate it and it has given me a lot to think about/go on to read about. :D
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby klvik » Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:05 pm

eastallegheny wrote:I'm at a stage in my Spanish where, armed with a dictionary and the knowledge of grammar I have, I can get my point across (even if it isn't exactly pretty). What I'd really love to do is start learning some Spanish idioms, those phrases and sayings that don't translate word for word. Often I find that the English version of what I want to say is idiomatic, and that makes me think that translating it literally wouldn't exactly work.

A prime example is "don't get me started". I'd love to be able to say that in Spanish, but I just know that a literal translation would be clunky and wrong in Spanish... right?

I have googled, but honestly, I take those sorts of search results with a pinch of salt. I'd rather hear the answer from a native speaker or someone who has actually spent enough time in a Spanish speaking country to know for sure :)

Thanks in advance!
eastallegheny


Welcome to the forum, Eastallegheny!

I suggest you take a look at this podcast for learners https://www.spanishpodcast.net/ and the podcast category of “expresiones cotidianas”. They attempt to explain the expressions in context and provide some input on the social register in which the expressions are appropriate (i.e., good with your friends, but not at work).

For what it is worth, my approach to idioms is to learn them so that I will understand them when I hear/read them in context. I don’t make a conscious attempt to use them in conversation. I figure that when my Spanish is advanced enough they will start popping out in the appropriate context on their own.
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby the1whoknocks » Wed Apr 26, 2017 5:28 am

I still have a lot to learn regarding idioms but telenovelas, podcasts, vlogs, and conversations partners have given me the most bang for my buck, so far. I have many books with idioms (largely turned out to be a bad decision, for me) but, there are two books that I actually manage to still browse through occasionally in search of what idioms might stick.

-1. Streetwise Spanish Dictionary/Thesaurus

Streetwise Spanish really is setup like a dictionary/ thesaurus. It is organized by topic and has idioms you might use when discussing that topic. Romance, food, frustration etc. It also shows the origin of each idiom and gives a few example sentences. I find the origin reference, particularly helpful. It has a few dialogs too, but they don't comprise the bulk of the book.

-2. Street Spanish: How to Speak and Understand Spanish Slang

Street Spanish is based around many short dialogs which aim to simulate how two friends might speak with each other. I like this book, not only because it’s dialog centric approach, but because directly following each Spanish dialog, and it’s accompanying English translation, is a literal and often hilarious translation of the dialog, which definitely helps things stick. After this literal translation, there are many exercises designed to facilitate a deeper understanding of these idioms and other sentences instances in which they might be used. I never do the exercises. Maybe I should.

I send a photo of each dialog I run through to people from four different countries; three from Latin America, and one from Spain. It is definitely focused around things that Latin Americans might say, but a lot of it is pretty standard too. Of all the idiom books I wasted time with, Street Spanish is the only one that people have consistently given me positive feedback on. In the very rare cases that something sounded wacky to them, they just provided me with how they would express the idea. I have the original edition, but I’ve seen newer editions that come with the dialogs on CD’s.

In any event, Linguee is my primary go-to when searching for a more idiomatic way to express something. Those books mostly just sit on my shelf until I feel like learning something randomly. I can't say they're the "best" but they're two books that I actually got value from.

EDIT:

I forgot to mention music and short stories like La mujer que llegaba a las seis and Pérdida y recuperación del pelo
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Re: Idiomatic Spanish - best resources?

Postby coldrainwater » Thu Apr 27, 2017 6:39 am

I may have only read 5-10 of the articles from curiosidario, but I like that they often explain an incredible amount about the culture and origins of some idioms. I may never know as many idioms as a native speaker, but at the end of the day, my 'as bajo la manga' is that I will know some of them very deeply. Thinking of my native language, I simply am not very likely to look up the origins of all the idioms I know (because it is far more interesting to learn those of another language/culture. Plus, I use my own without even thinking).

After multiple revisions, this site is still on my 'to read' list. Rich fodder for intensive study.

http://www.curiosidario.es/
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