Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
User avatar
Dylan95
Orange Belt
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:11 pm
Location: USA
Languages: English (N)
Currently Studying
Russian C1
Uzbek B1
Ukrainian B1~

Previously Studied and mostly forgotten
French
Italian
Latin
x 399

Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Dylan95 » Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:23 pm

Can someone explain the difference between these two Russian forms?

Менее
Меньше
- They both mean less, but what is the difference?

Дольше - longer?
Дальше - farther?
0 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Serpent » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:08 am

-They don't mean the same thing, they're just translated the same way :)
-longer/f_rther is approximately correct, yes (can be farther and further, if you use them differently in English)
-https://hinative.com/ru/questions/1588821 I don't necessarily agree with everything but it's a good starting point. specifically I disagree about менее - i think we do use it a lot. it's part of fixed expressions like более-менее/более или менее, тем не менее
-https://www.italki.com/question/108315
-The chart here may help too :) wow I could immediately think of более/больше but not the other forms :D They have an entire reference grammar too
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby tarvos » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:10 am

Менее is used in combination with other adjectives or adverbs to form the comparative (it cannot be used on its own):

Он менее приятный, чем я (He is less kind/nice than I am).

It is also used in some fixed expressions such as не менее (no less than).

Меньше is the comparative form of мало, маленький -

У него меньше денег - He has less money.

The thing is that in Russian there are two ways to form the negative comparative - one analytical way with менее, and one direct way by declining the adjective or adverb directly. Более is its counterpart for the positive compound construction.

Меньше always stands on its own - it cannot precede another adjective or adverb, only another noun, which after меньше comes in the genitive case (and usually the plural - so меньше денег, А НЕ МЕНЬШЕ ДЕНЬГИ).

Дольше is simply the comparative form of долго, долгий - long (said of a timespan, never of length - when we talk about length we use длинный)

Дальше is the comparative form of далекий, далеко - (far).


-----


The reason you are confused is that in English, less can be used as a standalone form but it is also used in the construction of comparative sentences, whereas Russian makes a distinction between these two situations (modifying adverbs/adjectives or simply being the comparative form of few). This is why you would translate both words as less, but they never ever fulfill the same function.

The examples Serpent mentioned are all conjunctions or adverbial constructions, in which менее is used, but here it's never found on its own - it's always in combination with something else. I think you should look at those adverbial constructions on their own merits. Knowing what менее means will help you to understand their construction, but the word in and of itself doesn't carry its normal meaning and needs the words surrounding it to indicate the correct form.
Last edited by tarvos on Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
5 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Serpent » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:14 am

tarvos wrote: долгий - long (said of a timespan, never of length - when we talk about length we use длинный)
Not in modern Russian, but there are traces of that meaning :) for example долговязый (tall person) or Долгопрудный and probably other place names :D
2 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

User avatar
tarvos
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2889
Joined: Sun Jul 26, 2015 11:13 am
Location: The Lowlands
Languages: Native: NL, EN
Professional: ES, RU
Speak well: DE, FR, RO, EO, SV
Speak reasonably: IT, ZH, PT, NO, EL, CZ
Need improvement: PO, IS, HE, JP, KO, HU, FI
Passive: AF, DK, LAT
Dabbled in: BRT, ZH (SH), BG, EUS, ZH (CAN), and a whole lot more.
Language Log: http://how-to-learn-any-language.com/fo ... PN=1&TPN=1
x 6093
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby tarvos » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:19 am

Of course, but that's a very secondary case - when you speak nowadays it's important to make the distinction between the two, especially because in English long can refer to both length and time, but Russian clearly distinguishes the two, so the translation is ambiguous with respect to that.

(This is also one of the reasons relying on translations directly can lead you astray!)
1 x
I hope your world is kind.

Is a girl.

User avatar
Dylan95
Orange Belt
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:11 pm
Location: USA
Languages: English (N)
Currently Studying
Russian C1
Uzbek B1
Ukrainian B1~

Previously Studied and mostly forgotten
French
Italian
Latin
x 399

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Dylan95 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:59 am

tarvos wrote:Менее is used in combination with other adjectives or adverbs to form the comparative (it cannot be used on its own):

Он менее приятный, чем я (He is less kind/nice than I am).

It is also used in some fixed expressions such as не менее (no less than).

Меньше is the comparative form of мало, маленький -

У него меньше денег - He has less money.

The thing is that in Russian there are two ways to form the negative comparative - one analytical way with менее, and one direct way by declining the adjective or adverb directly. Более is its counterpart for the positive compound construction.

Меньше always stands on its own - it cannot precede another adjective or adverb, only another noun, which after меньше comes in the genitive case (and usually the plural - so меньше денег, А НЕ МЕНЬШЕ ДЕНЬГИ).

Дольше is simply the comparative form of долго, долгий - long (said of a timespan, never of length - when we talk about length we use длинный)

Дальше is the comparative form of далекий, далеко - (far).


-----


The reason you are confused is that in English, less can be used as a standalone form but it is also used in the construction of comparative sentences, whereas Russian makes a distinction between these two situations (modifying adverbs/adjectives or simply being the comparative form of few). This is why you would translate both words as less, but they never ever fulfill the same function.

The examples Serpent mentioned are all conjunctions or adverbial constructions, in which менее is used, but here it's never found on its own - it's always in combination with something else. I think you should look at those adverbial constructions on their own merits. Knowing what менее means will help you to understand their construction, but the word in and of itself doesn't carry its normal meaning and needs the words surrounding it to indicate the correct form.



Thank you very much, Tarvos! This is very helpful. I asked some Russians and even they couldn't explain it to me.
0 x

User avatar
Dylan95
Orange Belt
Posts: 198
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 3:11 pm
Location: USA
Languages: English (N)
Currently Studying
Russian C1
Uzbek B1
Ukrainian B1~

Previously Studied and mostly forgotten
French
Italian
Latin
x 399

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Dylan95 » Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:59 am

Serpent wrote:-They don't mean the same thing, they're just translated the same way :)
-longer/f_rther is approximately correct, yes (can be farther and further, if you use them differently in English)
-https://hinative.com/ru/questions/1588821 I don't necessarily agree with everything but it's a good starting point. specifically I disagree about менее - i think we do use it a lot. it's part of fixed expressions like более-менее/более или менее, тем не менее
-https://www.italki.com/question/108315
-The chart here may help too :) wow I could immediately think of более/больше but not the other forms :D They have an entire reference grammar too


thank you very much, Serpent!
0 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 884
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Languages: Russian (N)
x 1910

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby aaleks » Tue Apr 25, 2017 10:57 am

I'd added to the posts above that "меньше" may be also translated as "smaller" in sentences like "Этот дом меньше, чем тот дом"/"This house is smaller then that house"
0 x

User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3657
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German, Italian
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian; Romanian, Galician; Danish, Swedish; Estonian
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Czech, Latvian
x 5179
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby Serpent » Tue Apr 25, 2017 2:40 pm

Yeah true, and we almost don't use structures like "not so big as" (at least it's not really a matter of politeness in Russian).
0 x
LyricsTraining now has Finnish and Polish :)
Corrections welcome

vonPeterhof
Blue Belt
Posts: 879
Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2015 1:55 am
Languages: Russian (N), English (C2), Japanese (~C1), German (~B2), Kazakh (~B1), Norwegian (~A2)
Studying: Kazakh, Mandarin, Coptic
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1237
x 2833
Contact:

Re: Менее/Меньше и Дольше/Дальше?

Postby vonPeterhof » Tue Apr 25, 2017 7:17 pm

Serpent wrote:
tarvos wrote: долгий - long (said of a timespan, never of length - when we talk about length we use длинный)
Not in modern Russian, but there are traces of that meaning :) for example долговязый (tall person) or Долгопрудный and probably other place names :D

The first two things I thought of were the nickname of one of my cousin's friends (they have three Alekseys in their group of friends, and one of them happens to be really tall, so he's Лёха Долгий) and a line from this song, "Появился человек ростом долгий" (the singer's clearly affecting a folksy, somewhat outdated style of speech, with some dialect features like the northern okanie and the Urals adverb попервости). So I guess this usage can appear in slang and dialectal usage, but yeah, it is pretty marginal.
1 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests