Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

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Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Xmmm » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:30 pm

I went through the first 15 lessons of Say Something in Welsh, and there was some emphasis on the "Double L", where the advice was "hold your tongue like you're going to say a double L but let the air pressure build up and loudly escape". I did my best, but from the recordings it was really hard to tell what exact sound was being made.

Then, this week I did the first two hours of Alaric Hall's Icelandic course. He said the Icelandic double L was basically the Welsh double L, and used the word "fuller" to have the students work on it.

student: Jeg er fhhhukkkhhhhhhler
hall: no, you have some k sound in there. There's no k. I'm now regretting choosing fuller as an adjective (he says this!)
student: Jeg er fhhhuchchchhhhhler
hall: that's better

So, if it's not fukler, is it fuchler (German ch)?

Because based on the instructions of how to make the sound, I think it ought to be futhler (pronounced fhhuthhhhhhler). Isn't a 'th' roughly the same as this "dreaded double L"? Or is it a different thing altogether?

In recordings this sound overwhelms the microphones and all you hear is explosive air. Hall says if you just keep practicing you'll get it, but I think to hear it correctly you must have to be with a physical person ... the audio recordings are not doing it justice.

Thanks!
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Ingaræð » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:49 pm

Ok, I think I've managed to de-construct the Welsh 'll'....

Open your mouth/jaw slightly, but keep it relaxed. Place the front part of your tongue against the back of your top teeth/front of the roof of your mouth area. Blow air out. Your tongue should flatten slightly, and the air flow around the sides.
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Sizen » Wed Mar 29, 2017 11:58 pm

As best I can remember, the Icelandic "ll" is pronounced "tl". I checked a few entries on wiktionary (villimaður and fjall) and they seemed to confirm that.
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Xenops » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:00 am

Ingaræð wrote:Ok, I think I've managed to de-construct the Welsh 'll'....

Open your mouth/jaw slightly, but keep it relaxed. Place the front part of your tongue against the back of your top teeth/front of the roof of your mouth area. Blow air out. Your tongue should flatten slightly, and the air flow around the sides.


Is it like the Korean L/R ?
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Ingaræð » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:16 am

Erm, I don't know... According to Wikipedia, the 'll' is a Voiceless alveolar lateral fricative (IPA symbol: ɬ), and there's no mention of Korean on that page.

I don't speak Icelandic, but they definitely still have that sound. I distinctly heard it numerous times while watching the TV series Trapped and The Night Shift (and its sequels). I was so surprised to hear it in another European language that I looked it up straight away!

EDIT: added IPA symbol.
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Mar 30, 2017 7:51 pm

Sizen wrote:As best I can remember, the Icelandic "ll" is pronounced "tl". I checked a few entries on wiktionary (villimaður and fjall) and they seemed to confirm that.

And "l" in this "tl" is kind of preaspirated and/or even voiceless. Wiki says that in practice (especially at the end of a word or syllable) this consonant does sound like a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative (ɬ from Welsh).
I've read/listened to a few sources and imagine, that the pronunciation of this sound goes somewhat like this: you place your tongue in the position for the "l" sound and then try to "hiss" (like a snake) through the sides of your tongue.
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Re: Question about the notorious Welsh/Icelandic "Double L"

Postby tastyonions » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:06 pm

Nahuatl is another one with the alveolar lateral fricative. You can hear a lot of it in this video:

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