Ways to study verbs

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reineke
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby reineke » Tue Mar 28, 2017 2:21 pm

Verbs vs nouns
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2597&p=31929&hilit=Verbs#p31929

Verb conjugation training
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2059&hilit=Verbs

Particular trouble learning verbs
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=2620&hilit=Verbs

The use of FSI
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5442&hilit=Fsi

Painless learning
I realize that people have different ideas about grammar pain.

viewtopic.php?f=14&t=1744&p=17599&hilit=Verbs#p17599
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby CurlySue » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:18 pm

Speakeasy wrote:Being immersed and learning each form of a verb separately as it comes along.
Hypothesis 1: You mean a “full immersion” language-learning experience, with no preparation, no formal training, no independent study, no structure to the learning experience, no support from guides/teachers, just “diving in the deep end” and learning a language as child or an immigrant might. If you do mean this kind of learning, my experience suggests that this type of situation would be painfully difficult, prone to the acquisition of very bad habits of speech and, while effective in the long run, terribly inefficient. Bear in mind that, in real-world conversations, verb conjugations get tossed around quite a bit! Although my “anecdotal evidence” above suggests that this type of verb-learning is possible, I would underscore that I had somehow retained much of the French grammar of my youth, which greatly facilitated my learning of the spoken language. So, while you would eventually “figure it all out”, why put yourself through all the stress?
Hypothesis 2: You mean a structured approach to language-learning whereby verb tenses are introduced in a typically progressive fashion. There are sound pedagogical reasons why languages are generally taught in such a manner; there is little to be gained by tackling B2 level grammar if one is not yet competent at the A1 level. So, are we not back to choosing one of the many more popular, effective and efficient means of learning verb conjugations?


"... my experience suggests that this type of situation would be painfully difficult, prone to the acquisition of very bad habits of speech..."

As opposed to studying verb conjugations from a textbook, which produces perfect language use right away? Do you know anyone who achieved perfect, native-like fluency in a language (if not in breadth of vocabulary, at least in the sense that they didn't make mistakes in conversational speech) just because they memorized a bunch of conjugations or grammar rules?

I agree that immersion alone is not the fastest/most efficient route, but wrt immersion being "painful" or "stressful", I think that depends on both the situation and also on the learner's personality. If you're suddenly in a new country where no one speaks your native language and you need to find a job, apartment etc as fast as possible, then yes, just listening to your target language all day will probably just add to your stress.

But if you're in your home language, and you've created an immersion environment in another language (with no expectation that you have to use that language to survive anytime soon), AND you have a "go-with-the-flow" personality, then immersion doesn't have to be stressful at all. I'm immersing myself (as much as time will allow me) in Hebrew these days, and I don't find it stressful that I don't understand most of what I hear. I focus on the little I do understand (or can figure out) and trust that the rest will eventually sort itself out.

Last but not least, I also partly disagree that there are "sound pedagogical reasons" for introducing things in a certain order. I'm not terribly familiar with the European system (B1, C2 etc), but in the Japanese Language Proficiency Test, for example, some of the things on the N1 (the highest level) are actually used quite a bit in the language and should probably be introduced earlier.

I do think that resources for foreign-language learners (textbooks etc) try to start with the basics and gradually advance in a way that makes sense. But their concept of what is simple or advanced depends in part on how much grammar needs to be explained (to someone learning the grammar of that language) - which doesn't necessarily overlap with how often certain words/phrases/structures are used by natives in natural speech.

I'm not against all explicit (grammar) instruction, but a huge advantage to an immersion-heavy approach is that you're likely to learn things in order of how often they come up.

Speakeasy wrote:So, are we not back to choosing one of the many more popular, effective and efficient means of learning verb conjugations?


I'm not sure what popularity has to do with anything. If I wanted to be pedantic, I could point that most students in Canada (or at least, in Ontario) take 8-10+ years of French classes and still can't have a conversation in the language. It's popular, and it's not working.

I agree that a combined approach is probably the most efficient, though.
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Re: Ways to study verbs

Postby YtownPolyglot » Wed Mar 29, 2017 6:23 pm

I started learning second languages more than 40 years ago, so some of the methodology is a bit dated for me. I feel a bit more on familiar ground when I see a verb conjugation. The very next thing I want to do is to create some sample sentences that will help me remember what I am learning. For example, if my new verb in my target language is "to eat," I might have sentences like:

I eat breakfast every morning.
You are eating a green salad.
He eats fish.
We eat in the same restaurant every Friday night.
You (plural) eat macaroni and cheese.
They eat snails in France.
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