Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Tue Mar 28, 2017 7:01 pm

Just a tip for a beginner who might be afraid of real Japanese.

Before I started learning Japanese I was just watching movies and reading Japanese books in translation.
I didn't intend to learn Japanese at all. But I was interesting what the original titles meant, and sometimes an expression or two I occasionally came across, e.g. 座頭市海を渡る or 二天一流.

座頭市 【ざとういち】 (s) Zatouichi (a famous movie character, the blind swordsman)
海を渡る 【うみをわたる】 (exp,v5r) to cross the ocean (i.e. to go to or come from overseas); ED

二天一流 【にてんいちりゅう】"the school of the strategy of two heavens as one" - style of classical Japanese swordsmanship involving use of two swords (Miyamoto Musashi 宮本 武蔵)

To find the meaning I used something similar to
http://nihongo.monash.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?9T

I didn't even try to remember anything. Many things just happened on their own. I suddenly started to pick up more and more words expressions in the movies I was watching.
I also many times re-watched some movies I fell in love with (head over heels really) - and that helped immensely. In a word, I'm a movie freak. I can watch up to six movies a day. (Japanese, Korean, Chinese - I don't watch American or European ones.)

And one day I had no more movies with subtitles or they made no sense. I just got angry (really pissed off) and decided to learn the language.

I also have a nasty habit of collecting 'charms' - movie clips, pictures, screen shots, poems, or sayings I particularly like.

But when I decide to do something important I do it full time.

And that's how it all happened. Don't blame ME. Blame Yamada Youji, Kurosawa Akira, Kitano Takeshi, the list is endless.

Was it worth it?

Пришла веселая,
стала в стойло.
И всё ей казалось —
она жеребенок,
и стоило жить,
и работать стоило.

Bye.
Be happy,
go lucky.
1 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:08 am

Image
Pakistan. Contemporary slaves. Parents are slaves, children are slaves. They toil away all day long and their debt only keeps growing and growing.

学校に行きたいけれどお金がないの
着て行く服も靴もないわ

がっこう に いきたい けれど お-かね が ない の
きていく ふく も くつ も ない わ

(I) want/would like たい to go to school but money doesn't exist (have no money) の - here: explanatory, you know

Neither put on and go clothes nor shoes exist (I have neither clothes to put on and go nor shoes) わ feminine sentence ending particle, mild assertion
Sentence endings often convey various modal attitudes.


学校 【がっこう】 school;

たい (aux-adj) want to ... do something; would like to ...;
行く 【いく)】 to go; to move (in a direction or towards a specific location); past tense irregular: 行った いった
金がない; 金が無い 【かねがない】 have no money; lit. money doesn't exist
お金 お- is added to make speech more polite or 'beautiful' - women tend to use it a lot
著る 【きる】 to wear (in modern Japanese, from the shoulders down); to put on;
服 【ふく】 clothes (esp. Western clothes)
靴 【くつ】 (n) shoes;
ない (aux-adj) not;
ない and たい conjugate as い-adjectives; past tense: なかった、 たかった
も particle too
も... も... both... and...
も... も... + nagative neither... nor...

Particles go after what they modify.
The rest: the modifier always before the modified, even if it is a full sentence (着て行く服); there are no relative pronouns in Japanese.

著る 【きる】 shouldn't be confused with
切る 【きる】 to cut; to cut through;
http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/se ... 7%E3%82%8B
著る is unaccented, 切る is accented
著る drops るru to conjugate, 切る drops -u.
If you don't know what pitch accent is, it's high time you did, at least to know what you ignore.


EDIT
If there's one thing I really HATE it's PROOOOFREADING.
exit instead of exist.
In English it's not such a big deal, but in Japanese...
In whatever language I type I tend to 'choose' a instead of o. I don't really know why.
I touch type with lightning speed and usually don't proofread anything. Have mercy.
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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smallwhite
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:48 am

Kamlari wrote:finding learning material for a beginner is extremely time consuming. So if you have hardly any time to study, it would be almost impossible for you to find anything.


So true. I wasn't even looking for anything new just now, just picking sentences from Memrise to learn, and it took me 45 minutes to get 80 sentences, enough to occupy me for... an hour or two.
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Dialang or it didn't happen.

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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 29, 2017 12:58 pm

smallwhite,
yes, you're right. What people usually call studying is 90% something else.
To really study you need
1. line-by-line audio
2. transcript
3. translation
4. glossary

For a beginner in Japanese coscom is good enough.
http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html


More real Japanese.

If you go to
http://tomato33.seesaa.net/
you can find these two messages
1. 再生できない場合、ダウンロードは こちら
2. 読みたい人はこちらへ。

1. 再生できない場合、ダウンロードは こちら
1. さいせい できない ばあい、 だうんろおど は こちら
1. Playback not able to do case, download (as for はwa) (click) here, this way
If you're unable to listen to the clip, click here to download.

再生 【さいせい】 (3) playback;
できない (adj-i) unable; incapable; not able to do;
場合 【ばあい】 case; situation;
ダウンロード (n,vs) {comp} download; (katakana, English word)
こちら (n) (1) this way (direction close to the speaker or towards the speaker); this direction; (2) here (place close to the speaker or where the speaker is); (3) this one (something physically close to the speaker); (pn,adj-no) (4) I; me; we; us; (5) this person (someone physically close to the speaker and of equal or higher status); KD

再生 【さいせい】 is a so called するsuru verb: noun + する to do. する is irregular. 'Can do' form is できるdekiru, drop ru to conjugate, nagative is できない cannot do - it's so called plain form.
再生できない is a relative clause, it modifies 場合.
You can often hear 場合 【ばあい】 pronounced bawai, it annoys me to no end.


2. 読みたい人はこちらへ。
2. よみたい ひと は こちら へ。
2. Read-want person/s はwa this way/here へe.
People (who) want to read (it), (please click) here.

読む 【よむ】 read; 読み is a linking form (to add auxiliaries (helping grammar words) or connect sentences: V and...
たい (aux-adj) (1) want to ... do something; would like to ...;
人 【ひと】 ; (n) (1) man; person; (2) human being; mankind; people;
こちら (n) (1) this way (direction close to the speaker or towards the speaker); this direction; (2) here (place close to the speaker or where the speaker is); (3) this one (something physically close to the speaker); (pn,adj-no) (4) I; me; we; us; (5) this person (someone physically close to the speaker and of equal or higher status); KD
へ particle へe. direction


Sometimes, when you click an old NHK http://www3.nhk.or.jp/news/ link, you get:
エラー
ページを表示できませんでした。
The page you requested could not be accessed.

ページを表示できませんでした。
ページを ひょうじ できませんでした
Page display was impossible. (unable to do the display)

エラー error;
ページ page;
を particle, direct object; you type it wo, pronounce o.
表示 【ひょうじ】 (2) {comp} display; displaying; するsuru verb
できませんでした (exp) was not able to do; It's the polite past negative form of する. The plain form is できなかった。

Listen to how to conjugate する
http://www.gavo.t.u-tokyo.ac.jp/ojad/se ... 9%E3%82%8B
する is at the bottom
Last edited by Kamlari on Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:30 pm

Sorry guys, I think I overdid it. Sometimes I can't help myself.
If you want learning materials, all in one place, go to
viewtopic.php?f=19&t=2907
and find the martian_mountain/ link.
Everything is covered there. From zero beginners to novels. Pronunciation, kanji, grammar, listening, reading.

Or find 'buonaparte's audio and text links' thread (it's pinned) at http://forum.koohii.com/ in Learning resources.

Bye, bye.
And remember:
LIE - Listening Is Everything (by leosmith)
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5071)
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

Call-Me-Captain
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Languages: Fluent in: German, French, English
Want to learn: Japanese, Chinese, Swedish
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Call-Me-Captain » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:00 pm

Woooooow, thank you guys so much for all the answers, it's unbelievable!

I'll try to answer each answer as soon as possible!
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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 29, 2017 4:49 pm

Don't try to answer each answer, STUDY instead. You've got only 30 minutes a day.



So, WHAT would I do if I only had 30 minutes a day?
I assume you study entirely on your own.

Find materials that have
1. line-by-line audio
2. transcript of the recording both in kanji and kana only
3. translation
4. glossary
You've got enough links to find something for yourself.

1. I would LISTEN even if my only goal was to read.
1.1 I would try to find out how basic grammar works and learn some basic vocab.
1.2 Until then I wouldn't worry about kanji, but would certainly get exposure to them in the text/sentences I'd be listening to right from the beginning.
1.3 If I felt ready, I'd echo (repeat after the recording) but only something I understood.
1.4 I'd type the text/sentences (kanji too) repeating aloud after the recording.
1.5 I'd write the text/sentences by hand in kana only repeating aloud at the same time.

2. And then I'd add studying kanji to my menu, but of course wouldn't stop doing POINT 1. above.
2.1 Learn about stroke order - the rules are very simple
http://www.sljfaq.org/afaq/stroke-order.html
2.2 Gradually learn kanji components and their JAPANESE names, many of the components are kanji on their own too.
Multi-Radical Kanji
http://nihongo.monash.edu/cgi-bin/wwwjdic?1R

Once I've learned the components I'd add:
1.6 I'd write the text/sentences by hand in KANJI and kana repeating aloud at the same time.

While repeating aloud I wouldn't do it MECHANICALLY, I'd try do add my own emotions and imagine why and to whom I was speaking. I'd avoid translating from English. I'd produce my own sentences only if I was ablolutely certain they were correct.
But should I happen to communicate directly with a Japanese person, I wouldn't worry about any mistakes.

After a while I'd be able to read and speak without listening and echoing.

And then I'd go on LISTENING and speaking and reading and writing and be happy.
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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reineke
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby reineke » Wed Mar 29, 2017 5:12 pm

Last edited by reineke on Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 29, 2017 7:38 pm

Call-Me-Captain,

whenever I see the word 'captain' I get in a very good mood - it's one of my favourite charms that always reminds me of
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captain_Haddock

and

I am the master of my fate:
I am the captain of my soul.

(Invictus by William Earnest Henley)

Now you know.
What do you know?
秘密だよ。
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

User avatar
Kamlari
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Posts: 224
Joined: Sat Aug 15, 2015 7:36 pm
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Thu Mar 30, 2017 10:00 am

The folder
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/Yumi/
contains two files:

1. !0 Yumi.doc
2. !K Kanji components.tsv

1. !0 Yumi.doc -
It's extremely learner-friendly.
I penned/compiled it some years ago for my niece.
Kana is all you have to know to do it.
Any suggestions welcome.

1.1 kanji components and their Japanese names (explained in English) + examples
1.2 basic grammar explained in English + examples

It covers what is usually ignored in learning materials for beginners
and what is absolutely essential:
pitch accent, kanji components, conjugations of single verbs, i-adjectives, and the Copula
– everything comes with AUDIO + animated stroke order.

WARNING
The links in the .doc file won't be working, the external content hasn't been uploaded. It might be uploaded later. Amaterasu only knows.

2. !K Kanji components.tsv
More than 6000 kanji broken into components. You can open it in Firefox.

Example:
儻 ⺌ 亻 儻 冂 口 尚 灬 里 黑 黨

EDIT
The content HAS been uploaded. I didn't notice.
Here it is
http://users.bestweb.net/~siom/martian_mountain/JCP/
Last edited by Kamlari on Sun Apr 02, 2017 11:43 am, edited 1 time in total.
0 x
Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.


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