Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

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Call-Me-Captain
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Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Call-Me-Captain » Tue Mar 21, 2017 2:48 pm

Hi!

I'm currently trying to learn Japanese, by spending about 30 minutes a day on that language.
While I did found a lot of resources online, most of them were only presenting the different aspects of the language - And not actually explaining what you should learn in order to get fluent.

I started off by learning the Kana's by heart (Hiragana & Katakana). While it still takes me an immense amount of time to actually "process" the characters while reading, I can "transcribe" them to Romaji without any trouble. Which isn't a big deal at all unfortunately, and leads me to my question: What am I supposed to do now?
Learn vocabulary so that I'm able to "kind of" know what I read?
Learn the grammar so I know how sentence structure differs from English?
Learn Kanji?

I'm completely, utterly clueless.

Any help is welcome and appreciated! Thanks!
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby AndyMeg » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:09 am

I think that depends on your objectives with the language. What is the one thing you want to do the most in japanese? (Talking to natives? Watch japanese TV or movies? Read mangas or even novels?, etc.)

One important thing I think one should tackle as early as possible is pronunciation and listening. Romaji is just an approximation to the actual sounds, so it is better to associate the sounds directly with the kanas instead of just associating the romaji version with the corresponding kanas. It is so because if, for example, your focus or main goal is with reading, then you may mispronunce (in your mind) some words and reinforce that mistake with continous reading.

So that you can focus only in pronunciation and listening at the beginning, I'd recommend to practice reading text in kana and listening to the corresponding audio. Here is a website you could use for that:

福娘童話集 Hukumusume Fairy Tale Collection

Not every story has a kana transcription. Here are some that do have it:

おいしい おかゆ

にがつ の さくら

カッパ を つろう

おじいさんとおばあさん

テング を ときふせた おとこ

おどる みけねこ

If you want, you can choose one of these options for the transcript, just right below the audio player:

にほんご ←→ にほんご & えいご ←→ えいご

にほんご --> japanese

にほんご & えいご --> japanese and english

えいご --> english

I would recommend to work like this:

1) Listen to the audio and try to follow with the text (reading in your mind). If it goes too fast you could use a finger to follow the text. You can even copy the text to Word and print it so it is easier to follow.
2) When you can follow the text with ease, listen again to the audio without reading.
3) Try to read out loud with the same speed as the audio. Practice as much as necessary until you finally match the speed.
4) Listen to the audio and, without looking at the transcript, try to transcribe it by yourself (pause and go back as many times as necessary). You can try this by hand and also with your keyboard (both train different skills, besides the basic recognition of sounds). When you finish, compare your transcription with the official one and mark with red any differences you find. Try again until there are no differences.

Two characters may give you trouble:
は--> sounds "ha" normally, but "wa" when used as a particle.
へ--> sounds "he" normally, but "e" when used as a particle.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby leosmith » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:29 am

Call-Me-Captain wrote:I'm currently trying to learn Japanese, by spending about 30 minutes a day

Some will disagree, but I don't think it's enough.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby aokoye » Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:58 am

leosmith wrote:
Call-Me-Captain wrote:I'm currently trying to learn Japanese, by spending about 30 minutes a day

Some will disagree, but I don't think it's enough.

30 minutes of sustained study a day is better than none and arguably better than 1 hour four days a week, especially if the OP can keep up with studying every day and not get burnt out. The OP also didn't mention any sort of timeline. If they had said, "I want to pass the N3 JLPT test in 6 months by studying half an hour a day" I would be answering this very differently.

To the OP, it sounds like you're looking for some sort of structure or guide to learning Japanese but correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of people, myself included, like the Genki series. There's also a lot of conversation about learning japanese on the Kanji Koohii forum. They do talk a lot about the book series Remembering the Kanji (which is only about learning some aspects kanji) but there has also historically been a lot of talk about other textbooks as well that are more well rounded than RtK.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 22, 2017 9:50 am

leosmith wrote:
Call-Me-Captain wrote:I'm currently trying to learn Japanese, by spending about 30 minutes a day

Some will disagree, but I don't think it's enough.


Agree 100%.


You probably need to know a little bit about Japanese grammar. It's very simple but it's very different and that makes it difficult for some people.

You need to listen a lot and understand what you're listening to, more or less at least.

You can use this site
http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html
to get started.
The texts are very short and they're all recorded. They come with vocab lists in Japanese and English.

Don't worry about the kanji at the beginning but get exposure to them in the texts you're listening to. After a while you'll start noticing things and then you'll be ready to get down to them in earnest. Learn all the components of kanji, they're the building blocks.

Good luck.
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2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby DangerDave2010 » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:05 am

Try the Tae Kim guide do Japanese grammar.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Wed Mar 22, 2017 10:33 am

DangerDave2010 wrote:Try the Tae Kim guide do Japanese grammar.

I don't believe in learning anything without listening to it.

As to GRAMMAR you might begin with 'Hugo Japanese In Three Months'.
It's probably the best introduction to Japanese grammar that comes with audio.
The original is romaji only. But you can find online a kanji and kana version too, if you look hard enough.

Another good introductory grammar with audio is 'Visualizing Japanese Grammar'.
https://www2.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/vjghomepage/vjghome.htm

As to Japanese verbs - 'Essential Verbs' by coscom is ideal.
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/item_250vb.html
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Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

Call-Me-Captain
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Call-Me-Captain » Wed Mar 22, 2017 1:36 pm

Thank you all so much for the answers. I truly appreciate it :)!

AndyMeg wrote:I think that depends on your objectives with the language. What is the one thing you want to do the most in japanese? (Talking to natives? Watch japanese TV or movies? Read mangas or even novels?, etc.)

I know this will sound really far-fetched, but I'd love to learn the language up to a point where I could do all of the above. However, my first goal would be to be able to properly be able to read. The second objective would be to understand a conversation between natives. Third objective would be to be able to talk as well, and final one would be to be able to write.
Yes, it may sound like I'm just saying that I want to learn it all because I don't know anything about it, but here's the thing: I may not have a lot of free time per day, but I don't need to be able "to do X in Y months", either. I have time - Years, if needed.
I set myself a schedule that allows me to approximately study for 30 minutes a day. I know that this isn't much, but I do plan on keeping at it. Obviously, I may have some more time to spend on some days, but that means that there'll also be days I won't be able to do those 30 minutes, even though those days should be rare.

AndyMeg wrote:One important thing I think one should tackle as early as possible is pronunciation and listening. Romaji is just an approximation to the actual sounds, so it is better to associate the sounds directly with the kanas instead of just associating the romaji version with the corresponding kanas. It is so because if, for example, your focus or main goal is with reading, then you may mispronunce (in your mind) some words and reinforce that mistake with continous reading.

Yeah, that does make sense. It also is one thing I did think could become a potential problem later on if I don't fix it: I won't get anywhere if the only thing I'm doing is transcribing the characters to Latin characters first, only to then try and interpret the text.

AndyMeg wrote:So that you can focus only in pronunciation and listening at the beginning, I'd recommend to practice reading text in kana and listening to the corresponding audio. Here is a website you could use for that:

福娘童話集 Hukumusume Fairy Tale Collection

Not every story has a kana transcription. Here are some that do have it:

おいしい おかゆ

にがつ の さくら

カッパ を つろう

おじいさんとおばあさん

テング を ときふせた おとこ

おどる みけねこ

If you want, you can choose one of these options for the transcript, just right below the audio player:

にほんご ←→ にほんご & えいご ←→ えいご

にほんご --> japanese

にほんご & えいご --> japanese and english

えいご --> english

I would recommend to work like this:

1) Listen to the audio and try to follow with the text (reading in your mind). If it goes too fast you could use a finger to follow the text. You can even copy the text to Word and print it so it is easier to follow.
2) When you can follow the text with ease, listen again to the audio without reading.
3) Try to read out loud with the same speed as the audio. Practice as much as necessary until you finally match the speed.
4) Listen to the audio and, without looking at the transcript, try to transcribe it by yourself (pause and go back as many times as necessary). You can try this by hand and also with your keyboard (both train different skills, besides the basic recognition of sounds). When you finish, compare your transcription with the official one and mark with red any differences you find. Try again until there are no differences.

Two characters may give you trouble:
は--> sounds "ha" normally, but "wa" when used as a particle.
へ--> sounds "he" normally, but "e" when used as a particle.

Thank you for the advice and the links! I'll definitely do that.
However, won't it be a problem if I don't really understand basic grammar and vocabulary (I'm not sure if I made that clear in my original post, but I literally don't know anything other than the Kana<->Romaji equivalence.)? Shall I do this practice before practicing vocabulary, or afterwards?

leosmith wrote:
Call-Me-Captain wrote:I'm currently trying to learn Japanese, by spending about 30 minutes a day

Some will disagree, but I don't think it's enough.

I know that it isn't a lot. I unfortunately don't have that much more time to spend on it. However, those 30 daily minutes are something I will fit in my schedule, and keep doing.

aokoye wrote:30 minutes of sustained study a day is better than none and arguably better than 1 hour four days a week, especially if the OP can keep up with studying every day and not get burnt out. The OP also didn't mention any sort of timeline. If they had said, "I want to pass the N3 JLPT test in 6 months by studying half an hour a day" I would be answering this very differently.

Yep, I have no "time limit" at all - I want to learn Japanese purely for personal reasons.

aokoye wrote:To the OP, it sounds like you're looking for some sort of structure or guide to learning Japanese but correct me if I'm wrong. A lot of people, myself included, like the Genki series. There's also a lot of conversation about learning japanese on the Kanji Koohii forum. They do talk a lot about the book series Remembering the Kanji (which is only about learning some aspects kanji) but there has also historically been a lot of talk about other textbooks as well that are more well rounded than RtK.

Thanks for the advice! I actually do have access to the Genki book series, but haven't used them a lot yet, mainly because I found it quite hard to follow (It uses a lot of words/structures already early on that I don't understand and that aren't directly explained. Or maybe I'm just stupid, I don't know.)
I'll take a look at RtK!

Kamlari wrote:You probably need to know a little bit about Japanese grammar. It's very simple but it's very different and that makes it difficult for some people.
You need to listen a lot and understand what you're listening to, more or less at least.
You can use this site
http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html
to get started.
The texts are very short and they're all recorded. They come with vocab lists in Japanese and English.

Don't worry about the kanji at the beginning but get exposure to them in the texts you're listening to. After a while you'll start noticing things and then you'll be ready to get down to them in earnest. Learn all the components of kanji, they're the building blocks.
Good luck.

Thank you very much! I'll try to follow your advice.

DangerDave2010 wrote:Try the Tae Kim guide do Japanese grammar.

Thanks, I'll check it out!

Kamlari wrote:As to GRAMMAR you might begin with 'Hugo Japanese In Three Months'.
It's probably the best introduction to Japanese grammar that comes with audio.
The original is romaji only. But you can find online a kanji and kana version too, if you look hard enough.

Another good introductory grammar with audio is 'Visualizing Japanese Grammar'.
https://www2.gwu.edu/~eall/vjg/vjghomepage/vjghome.htm

As to Japanese verbs - 'Essential Verbs' by coscom is ideal.
http://www.coscom.co.jp/ebook/item_250vb.html

Thank you, I'll also look at that!



Big thanks to all of you, I'll try to follow your advice!
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby gsbod » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:39 pm

Since you are just starting out, you don't know where to begin and you don't have huge amounts of time to spend, I would suggest a textbook that covers basic vocabulary, grammar and kanji would be a good place to start. You can then focus more on specifics once you have a foundation to work from.

Genki has already been mentioned. It was my personal introduction to elementary Japanese and did a reasonably good job. If you already have access to it, that's also a bonus, although make sure you have access to the audio as well as the textbook. If you have specific questions about things that don't make sense in the book, you can always post them here!
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby RandomQuotes » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:58 pm

If your goal is to speak Japanese, then it's a bit out of fashion due to it being audio lingual based(and using romaji transcriptions, but if you're using the book right, that shouldn't matter), but I don't think you can do much better than "Japanese, the Spoken Language" by Eleanor Harz Jorden.


If you don't mind dense grammatical explanations and have a tutor that can check your answers with, "An Introduction to Modern Japanese" by Bowring and Laurie is wonderful.
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