Learning to read Chinese/Japanese

[Dylan95]

I'm a history student and in order to attend graduate school, one needs to have a considerable foundation in the languages that they will be working with. Unfortunately for me, I'm interested in the history of Northeast Asia! What are reasonable goals and time frames in terms of Chinese and Japanese? Especially in terms of reading.

Such questions usually irritate me because there is so much variation, but it would be interesting to hear some personal examples etc. Normally when I learn languages, I simply take it one day at a time and try not to worry much about time frames, but in this case I don't have that luxury because it is work related.

What are reasonable expectations in terms of the amount of time it would take to read relatively proficiently? What variables may affect this and how?

Since this is preparation for graduate school, I will be able to put in a lot of time over the next couple of years if I do decide to take this path.

[aokoye]

I haven't found any books for Japanese that would help address this but it looks like the University of Hawaii teaches a Japanese for Reading Knowledge course for grad students. I would email them and ask what book they use. That said I would be unsurprised if they use a course package as opposed to a book given how little I've been able to find (as opposed to the copious amounts of French for reading knowledge books). Let me know what you find! I'm really interested in Japanese but more interested in reading than speaking.

[Dylan95]

Thanks for the advice! I'll post it if I find anything out, but it seems like it's going to be quite a challenge!

[Sizen]

It really depends on how well you take to the language and the diligence with which you tackle your studies. I know people who have gone from nothing to Japanese literature in less than three years, or zero to writing their honours thesis in Chinese in four years. These people typically get hooked on the language they're focusing on and end up spending all of their waking hours outside of their daily obligations immersed in their target language. I'd say that for your typical person who puts in an hour or two of balanced, multifaceted study every day, a timeframe of three or four years is enough to acquire a decent knowledge of the language: enough to start looking at difficult, specialized texts. Let's be clear, though: there'll still be a long ways to go.

Back when I first started learning Japanese, I was young, I didn't really know what I was doing and I was far from the student I am now, yet I managed to get to a level where I could enjoy teen novels and have conversations entirely in Japanese in three years.

It looks like you have experience learning a foreign language to a serviceable level, and you're obviously motivated if you're planning on moving up to grad school, so depending on the free time you'll have over the next few years and the requirements of your graduate program, 3~4 years doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I won't say it isn't possible in fewer years, but most people don't have the means to maintain the kind of intensity that would be necessary.

[stelingo]

I refer you to this article about why Chinese is so damn hard. It goes into some detail about the difficulty of learning to read the language. It makes interesting reading, but may discourage you.

http://pinyin.info/readings/texts/moser.html

However Benny Hill wrote a critique of the above. Personally I find his arguments less convincing, but it provides an alternative perspective.

http://www.fluentin3months.com/chinese/

[lichtrausch]

It took me about three years of studying Japanese before I could read newspapers and novels (with a dictionary) with decent comprehension, but I was that type of person Sizen mentioned who became obsessed with the language. Nowadays I can read it with little or no help from a dictionary. For the past 7 years or so I have been studying Chinese on and off, and I can read the language (with a dictionary) with decent comprehension, but speaking and listening is still a disaster. Lately I've been studying Korean intensively, and after about a year (altogether) of that, I'm almost ready to jump into novels. Having a strong Japanese base is helping A LOT.

[Dylan95]

It really depends on how well you take to the language and the diligence with which you tackle your studies. I know people who have gone from nothing to Japanese literature in less than three years, or zero to writing their honours thesis in Chinese in four years. These people typically get hooked on the language they're focusing on and end up spending all of their waking hours outside of their daily obligations immersed in their target language. I'd say that for your typical person who puts in an hour or two of balanced, multifaceted study every day, a timeframe of three or four years is enough to acquire a decent knowledge of the language: enough to start looking at difficult, specialized texts. Let's be clear, though: there'll still be a long ways to go.

Back when I first started learning Japanese, I was young, I didn't really know what I was doing and I was far from the student I am now, yet I managed to get to a level where I could enjoy teen novels and have conversations entirely in Japanese in three years.

It looks like you have experience learning a foreign language to a serviceable level, and you're obviously motivated if you're planning on moving up to grad school, so depending on the free time you'll have over the next few years and the requirements of your graduate program, 3~4 years doesn't seem unreasonable to me. I won't say it isn't possible in fewer years, but most people don't have the means to maintain the kind of intensity that would be necessary.

I have the option to move to go to China/Japan and study the language for a couple of years. I'm just worried that even after a year in the country, my reading skills would be non-existent. I'm familiar with the challenges of both languages and language acquisition in general, but its very difficult to comprehend the difficulty of learning to read a language that involves such different systems of script.

How do you think learning the language intensively within the country itself would affect the 3-4 year estimate? Especially in terms of reading.

[gsbod]

It took me around 4 years before I started to really be able to pick up a normal Japanese book and even then it was far from effortless.

It was the first time I learned a foreign language outside of high school and I wasted time on a few dead ends. I also put a lot of emphasis on developing my listening skills which may not be relevant to you.

Having said that, I think 3-4 years of consistent work is probably about right for most people.

[gsbod]

I have the option to move to go to China/Japan and study the language for a couple of years. I'm just worried that even after a year in the country, my reading skills would be non-existent. I'm familiar with the challenges of both languages and language acquisition in general, but its very difficult to comprehend the difficulty of learning to read a language that involves such different systems of script.

How do you think learning the language intensively within the country itself would affect the 3-4 year estimate? Especially in terms of reading.

I didn't see this post before I posted above. I'm not sure what your timescales would be until making the trip to China/Japan to study, but my recommendation would be to start studying right now (if you haven't already) and try to get as much done as you can before you get there so that you can really get the most out of your stay. Reading is at least something that you can study on your own. The only real benefit to being in country in terms of reading alone is that it is easier and more economical to get hold of reading material.

As for the difficulty of learning to read, I can only speak about Japanese, but I would say that once you get your head around the basic principles of how the writing system works, it is not so much difficult as it is time consuming. No matter what method you use, there is no avoiding that you will need to learn a lot of information and that just takes time and practice.

[MarkLondon]

However Benny Hill wrote a critique of the above. Personally I find his arguments less convincing, but it provides an alternative perspective.

I think you probably mean Benny Lewis, but I like the idea that Benny Hill might have been an expert in sinolinguistics.