Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby aokoye » Sat Dec 10, 2016 12:13 am

I can't easily comment on your ability, given your new schedule, to reach C2 by November. I definitely think you'll reach C1 though. Probably a high C1. That said:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
Serpent wrote: No courses are enough for this level. Knowing a lot of vocab is great but not enough.
I agree, courses are not enough. Even extremely advanced courses possibly aimed at C1/C2 exams for example -and this took me a long time to finally understand- are not enough. They are appropriate as part of the overall mixture of materials perhaps, depending on one's needs, but you are right, not enough. And vocab alone, I also agree. One must be able to hear, use, speak the language of this level. You are right Serpent, as are many others, and I was wrong when I used to think that courses alone could get me there. In fact they might get me close, but i'd be doing courses for the next 5 to 10 years to cover enough content I think. I've gradually changed my tune and still might change it further, in that I'm totaly in agreement, courses do not suffice. For this reason I have been using native content for some time, but not realised (or wasn't ready) how much more I needed to be using such content.


Part of the reason I find this thread really interesting and valuable is because I think we're likely at pretty similar stages and have similar goals - just with different languages. I agree with Serpent and everyone else that courses aren't enough for this level. That said I think that they are definitely a useful tool or really part of a whole for some depending on the L2, the learner's competencies (or lack thereof), where the learner is living, etc etc. That said, I think I've probably been far more non course dependent in German then you have been with French and I know that I need the structure of a course. Honestly the most ideal thing for me would be living in Germany or Austria and taking a good intensive class while also spending a lot of out of class time immersing myself in German. That, however, is not possible within the next year and a half unless I'm able to go to Germany for a month this summer (in which case I'd spend a second month in Austria and take the TestDaF that summer as well).

I think I tend to spend less time actively working on vocabulary acquisition than most people here do which hasn't actually served me very well. I'm working on it ;) That said what is the first thing that goes, language learning wise,when I'm really having trouble with my depression? Working on vocab. That need for a more secure base of vocabulary is a big reason why I'm working with the Studio C1 textbook. There's a ton of reading (one of my weaknesses) and with that a lot of vocabulary. For various reasons it's a lot easier for me to deal with intensive reading and vocab acquisition through textbooks than actual books. Additionally as I talked about earlier, writing is my other major weakness and the textbook I chose has some nice prompts based on the material that's being covered. Could I come up with or find prompts on my own? Sure. Am I going to do that? Maybe.

That said, again textbooks are just a part of a whole in terms of my language learning - I expect the is true for you. I also try to talk to a friend of mine in German as much as possible (which works out to less time than both of us would like due to our schedules), I watch or listen to 7+ hours of German media a week (it feels like less) all of which is aimed at native speakers, I try to do some extensive reading though my motivation is kind of a mess with that, some of the recipes I use for cooking and baking are in German (I'm currently in love with my new German bread book), and I'm trying to do more writing in German.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Tomás » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:00 am

I find dubbed tv series the easiest to understand, even easier than native news. Tonight I watched an episode of Mandrake (a Brazilian show dubbed into Spanish), and another dubbed episode of Buffy. I followed everything just fine. But watching an original Spanish series and understanding enough for it not to be frustrating is beyond me for now.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Dec 10, 2016 11:17 am

Serpent wrote:The SC was started with this goal in mind, yes.
Cristina herself reported that she felt she had gone from B2 to C2 in French thanks to it. But she started learning French at about the same age as her daughters are now, she's been in immesion situations many times and read a lot of books too.

For me the best thing about the SC-scale quantity of input is that it makes you *want* to use the language. I'm not actually against speaking or writing, I just want output to come naturally. Shadowing, scriptorium, lyricstraining, LR or just listening and reading separately help a lot with that.


I'm looking forward to pushing ahead with the reading component in particular of the SC :)

Serpent wrote:However, as for C1/C2, according to Cavesa the latter is actually easier. If you can pass C1 with targeted preparation, you may be able to pass C2 too. The main question is still how far you are from C1/C2. It's often recommended to have a session with an experienced tutor who can tell you which exam you can reasonably expect to pass.


This makes a lot of sense, that is the comparisons you are mentioning between C1 and C2. As for a tutor assessing my level... excellent idea.

tarvos wrote:In my experience, getting to a high level in a language requires consistent practice and usage. Even now, I'll still occasionally slip in languages that I know extremely well. For example, my Russian is very good, but it's taken me five years to get to that point. And still, if people delve too deeply into slang, ancient terminology, some synonym for a word I've never heard, or just plain slur, they can lose me. And nobody in their right mind doubts I'm a good speaker of Russian (and I'm even better in speech than writing). Learning how to get to the level where you are truly comfortable in every situation takes years and years of practice, something many people don't have or aren't willing to put the effort in to achieve. Honestly, getting to a B2-C1-ish level is so useful in and of itself that I often don't really go further than that in the majority of my target languages. There are very few languages that I'd claim to speak at such a high level of detail. Be aware you're going to have to set aside a part of your life to the degree where you won't have time for much else. Most of the languages I am very good at also imply that I spent time in the target country or spoke lots to native speakers.


I certainly understand that a hell of a lot of dedication is required, and that I won't have time for much else. This has already been the case for me for some time, and I don't expect it to be any different from here on- lots of work to be done!

tarvos wrote:Recently I've been teaching a Slovenian student of mine Dutch and the one thing where you notice that he is slower is not his vocabulary or usage (his vocabulary and grammar are extremely impressive, to the degree he can watch stand-up comedy in Dutch: no mean feat!) - it's the fact he hesitates more when he has to search for exactly the right expression, or the fact he's using a slight circumlocution for something I'd say a little faster. Or he might at random make a grammar slip where I wouldn't.

Keep that in mind. Often the people who are so good at a foreign language as to be almost indistuiguishable from natives have good personal reasons to have such a level, and often carry a whole range of experiences with them that most of us could only dream of. Keep in mind that for a well-rounded level, it's not just about daily conversation.

Keep in mind that when I say I speak Spanish, I say so because:
- I've done therapy sessions in Spanish and handled extremely difficult personal situations in that language. (Have you ever tried to come out as transgender in a foreign country in a small village? And had to do it in a language NOT YOUR OWN?)
- I've handled medical appointments in that language, including situations that involved probable diagnoses of rare diseases (stuff I'd never even heard about in Dutch).
- I've handled banking issues, payments and so on in Spanish. I handled my rent in Spanish.
- I've handled complicated staff and personal issues in Spanish. Including having to explain being trans to superiors.
- I've gone out and partied in that language even in situations where hearing becomes difficult due to loud music.
- I've negotiated all sorts of things in Spanish.
- I've taught other people foreign languages using Spanish as an aid (and having people seek me out on the basis of my knowledge).
- I've read complicated novels, history magazines and other such things in Spanish without issue. I've watched movies in Spanish in various dialects. I've consumed all sorts of media in Spanish.
- I've translated business e-mails from Spanish to English for the use of my school.

Doing all that and negotiating these situations with ease is what C2 sort of implies, plus being able to use your language in a very academic register and without circumlocutions. And I don't even think I've hit C2 in Spanish - I'm working on C1 material which contains mostly unknown expressions (but rather little unknown grammar).

There's hardly a need to go to that sort of in-depth knowledge, unless you happen to be forced into circumstances where that is necessary. Ask yourself: is that really what I need? How do I get there? And how do I think I can achieve this from the comfort of my bedroom? You're still in Australia, and you don't have, as far as I can tell, a deadline looming over your head. The sword of Damocles itself, come to threaten you with imminent failure unless you buck up and learn the language.

That's what mastery is. All of these things. Everyone of us will have a differently distributed skillset, but everyone I've ever known that learned Spanish to a good level would be able to do all of these things and do them well.

Are you ready to take on a new part of your life where you are willing to make those sacrifices? Is it necessary for your survival? Or is it a pipe dream? Something you consider an ideal, but don't have the courage to follow through on? That's a decision you need to take, and there's absolutely no harm in saying no.

And that's not even arguing about your actual level.


I get the sense that you don't know whether I'm committed to learning at such a level. First up, in the last few years I think I've shown ample dedication, but there is certainly room for improvement. Secondly, I don't believe I have to put everything else in my life on hold to reach C1 or C2. You could be overstating what is expected at this level, but you may very well not be. I have not passed an exam at this level and you tarvos are advanced in many languages, so you have much more experience to draw from when you make such claims, but still, a doctor, having done years of study doesn't always know everything even within their own field. Doctors make mistakes, are human and can be incorrect, even in their area of expertise. I definitely know a huge amount of dedication is required, I need to be very much on top of the language is numerous complicated circumstances, which doesn't scare me at all, and frankly I have my doubts about reaching C2 before 2 years, but I could be wrong. However I do still get a hint of you're overstating the expectations just a little and I mean a little (i'm not saying a little and meaning a lot). I will continue to attempt to work, have a life with my family and exercise all the while aiming for C1/C2, this may mean that I don't make it there for years to come, but I cannot simply ignore my family, not work and so on. I know you weren't suggesting this, but the level of dedication you appear to be describing almost entails this- that there's not much room for anything else at all. Perhaps you mean this in the context of attempting to reach this level by the sooner date that I'd mentioned, in which case I would agree, a hell of a lot of dedication is required, and room for little else in my life. That's not going to happen, so the road will just have to be longer if the picture you paint is correct tarvos. Difficult to gauge from your angle when you really don't know where I'm at currently. I sincerely appreciate you taking the time to share your views on my situation, views which do come from a very experienced learner. I have looked at your list of languages from time to time and have found myself in awe of your achievements. Don't let any minor disagreements above be a sign of disrespect of your position. I take your comments on board, and would not be surprised if in four or five years from now I'll be saying "tarvos was soooo right!", but I sincerely hope I can prove you at least half wrong ;)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Systematiker » Sat Dec 10, 2016 1:43 pm

Just to throw another curveball in here - have you considered gratifying your interest in Dutch by giving it a bit of time solely through French? I've only really got the one anecdote, and I've just realized I can take my own advice, but I really credit a lot of my transition from C1 to C2 to the (necessary, in some cases) use of German for laddering. Two birds with one stone, perhaps, jn your case.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Serpent » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:21 pm

Yeah that's a good idea :) So obvious to me that I forgot to mention it :oops: I suppose you've seen the wikia page about simultaneous learning?

I've probably said this before but I definitely recommend that you (PM) go through the courses you own (for Dutch AND French, and possibly other langs), and resell or give away as much as possible. Start with things you purchased when you were new to language learning, anything you wouldn't buy now because it's low quality/doesn't have much content/whatever. For French get rid of things that are definitely below your level.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Sat Dec 10, 2016 2:38 pm

I wanted to quote the posts but that would create a monster post. So:

PM, you are asking whether this or that schedule will work. It may. There is a lot of merit in sticking to a schedule. But your needs will change slightly between the inividual days. Just as your capacity for learning. It is highly useful to sometimes binge watch a series for five hours. On a different day, you may want to everything but that. So, some flexibility will be necessary.

And this is not exact science. Nothing in language learning is exact science (just like medicine is in some ways more art and cooking than science). Noone can know what will your brain behave like. How much of each ingredient you'll need. Whether you'll get tired at some points. Which stuff will you find much easier than I have.

I can see here a certain tendency to look for easier native material. Dubbed series are great, but they should be a minority in your native content based diet. Because they are easier than most native series. Careful about this, PM. You have a history of using too easy courses. Don't let it carry over to using too easy native stuff.

With all respect to Tomas, the reasons why he suggests tv news and dubbed series are exactly the reasons why you should NOT use them. much. They are too easy. Especially the TV news. Awesome for people around A2 or B1, not later. Sure, larger journalism pieces (discussions, detailed longer reportage, and so on), that is different. But TV news are too easy at this point

As far as I understand emk's story and suggestions, he started Buffy before he was B2. I started dubbed tv series at a weaker B2 level. Yes, they were helpful. But getting stuck at those would have damaged my learning.

To klvik's point: actually I talked about the active skills quite a lot. I learnt to speak French through listening to it. A lot of listening. That is how I did it. And while some people may prefer more direct speaking practice, I am 100% convinced that tons of listening always take effect and people underestimate it widely. I wrote about writing too, and I was not the only one.

The image of Luca's level description was nice, even though I don't agree that much. Yes, you get to enjoy the language more at the B2 level, which makes it much easier. But you as well lose clear directions forward and therefore progress not only slower, but in a bit more chaotic way. To expand a bit on the metaphore: Up to A2, it is a slight slope. Than, it gets steeper and steeper as you climb to the B2. Than, you don't go comfortably down, just for a long time. THe slope is again not that steep, but you've just entered a forest (like Bilbo and the dwarves), with paths sometimes barely visible, with spiders of despair attacking, with few signs "this way".
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby iguanamon » Sat Dec 10, 2016 3:35 pm

Great post by Cavesa, as usual. I know you are going to be "you", pm- always with a highly organized plan to follow... whether you stick to it or not. The most important thing is to get going. You've not placed nearly as much importance up to now on native materials as you have courses. The courses have done their job. You've built a solid foundation. Now it's time to build the house on that foundation. Get started listening, reading and doing some writing and some speaking. You don't have to speak every day (or even every week) or write 10,000 pages, but try to do some of both to help you consolidate and activate what you know. One series won't make you but it will be a huge boost to get on your way, especially if you are active within it. What's most important is that regular listening and reading become an integral part of how you live your life in French.

I hope you can find a whole library of conspiracy theory related media to delve into, health and nutrition, cycling, too. When I delve into the stuff I like, I also try to notice- Why do they express this in this way? What's going on here with this sentence? The courses are there to give you a foundation to build upon, just like schooling is there to give you a foundation to build upon in life. You can learn enough about a profession in school to get you a job, but actually doing the job teaches you more.

I know my learning style would send you around the bend because I am not organized at all. I do what I can, when I can, throughout the day. I don't count pages, books hours. I don't have progress bars or use srs, but I get things done because I am motivated within myself to do what I need to do because it's what I want. I'm always prepared for downtime with something to listen to or read near to hand. I rise early and read. I walk and listen. If I have a long (for me a half an hour or even 15 minutes- living on an island) I listen. Waiting for someone... I can check my twitter feed which is customized with good resource people I follow. There's still time to live my life, hang out with friends, enjoy my family, go sailing and mix all of them together too.

Having media to hand is easier today than it ever has been with the availability of the smart phone. I have a cheap bluetooth to fm transmitter in the car so I can listen to anything on my phone. I have the kindle app on the phone to read which is synced with my kindle device. I have pdf's on the phone. News apps in Spanish, Portuguese and Kreyòl. If I have to fly somewhere, I have films and series episodes to watch plus podcasts to listen to...all of it to hand. It makes things easier. When I'm sailing in the blue Caribbean sea, all of that is left behind... speaking of which... time to go sail. :)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Finny » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:01 pm

Cavesa wrote:With all respect to Tomas, the reasons why he suggests tv news and dubbed series are exactly the reasons why you should NOT use them. much. They are too easy. Especially the TV news. Awesome for people around A2 or B1, not later. Sure, larger journalism pieces (discussions, detailed longer reportage, and so on), that is different. But TV news are too easy at this point.


I came back just to echo this. When I got back to learning French this summer, I started with TV news (iTELE), and I learned a lot from it. However, branching out to other channels (France 2, France 3, France 0, Europe 1, LCI) was a very good idea. Was it harder at first? Absolutely. But it involves more natural back-and-forth language, more unpredictability, more variability in situations and topics, and that's a huge part of reaching C-whatever. And in thinking back to when I learned Spanish, I spent almost no time watching the news, although I did spend time listening to radio news. However, pretty much 100% of my TV time in Spanish was spent with soap operas, while most of my radio time was spent with morning shows, afternoon shows, and music. The news is great at the low-to-intermediate levels, but you get more bang-for-buck when people aren't sitting and reading teleprompters at the advanced levels. As Cavesa noted, it's different when dealing with in depth reporting or round table discussions (which is part of why I like LCI these days if I'm going to watch news).

To klvik's point: actually I talked about the active skills quite a lot. I learnt to speak French through listening to it. A lot of listening. That is how I did it. And while some people may prefer more direct speaking practice, I am 100% convinced that tons of listening always take effect and people underestimate it widely. I wrote about writing too, and I was not the only one.


This also bears repeating. With Spanish, I spent very little time talking to native speakers while learning it intensively. I did have some experiences, yes, but they mostly served to remind me to look up certain words so I'd be able to use them in the future. Oh, and they also served nicely as confidence boosters that my crazy approach of just listening and reading was working. The grammar, vocab, and the ability to understand what was said to me and produce new responses came almost exclusively from listening a lot and reading a lot. This isn't to say that practicing with people is a bad thing, or that tutors are useless or anything like that. But I know Reineke has posted various links to how listening skills are the skills most highly correlated with overall language proficiency and are the skills most likely to lead to speaking proficiency, and this is also backed up by the AJATT approach as Khatzumoto self-taught, which itself was basically the Antimoon approach applied to Japanese. I've lost count of the number of times I've looked up something directly because I wanted to learn how to say it, only to come across it weeks or days (or occasionally, minutes!) later on TV or in a book I was reading.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby NoManches » Sat Dec 10, 2016 6:52 pm

Unfortunately, I can't give much advice on this topic but I am glad that it came up. I consider myself a B2 in Spanish and my goal is to be a solid C1 sometime in 2017. While I'd love to reach C2, I think it is something that will come with time (at least for me). Sure, I could sit down and study for hours each day with the C2 goal in mind, but I'd rather study hard now so I can reach C1. Without the pressure of having to reach C2, I think I'll be able to just enjoy native material and get there when I get there.

Somebody brought up the Super Challenge earlier. I don't necessarily think the Super Challenge will in itself push me to the C1 level...although it is certainly helping. Actually, I have a feeling that in the course of the Super Challenge I will reach somewhat of a C level but only because I am exposing myself to so many other native materials that can't be measured (such as random news articles or Facebook posts I read, short YouTube clips, random interactions with strangers in Spanish, etc).


Looking forward to hearing what other people say on this topic. 8-)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Dec 10, 2016 10:58 pm

iguanamon wrote:Some online tests are better than others. The US Defense Language Institute has an Online Diagnostic Assessment test for French and 17 other languages. It tests reading and listening comprehension. You do have to register but it's free and well worth the time.


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Here are my results for the reading component of the US Defense Language Institute's Online Diagnostic Assessment
(not the time to complete was extended as I tried to get our washing machine started - appears like it's been damaged in a power surge or two, thus I'd minus 15 min off the time). Still, the time I've taken is long, and this kind of time cannot be afforded in an exam situation, which is certainly something to take into account.
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Reading Assessment
Language: French
Date of the Diagnostic Session: 12/10/2016
Time Spent for the Session: 175 Minutes
Name: ***** ****

Based on your performance in this ODA session, your ILR proficiency level estimate is 3 or higher (Current Level).

Note: The primary purpose of ODA is to provide you with formative feedback - feedback to help you in the learning process. The ILR level estimate you are given here is intended to function as a reference for charting your progress toward higher proficiency. You may or may not receive the same level at an official test.
The goal is to work incrementally toward your target proficiency level, by learning more about the content areas and the lexical, syntactical, and discourse aspects that you have not yet mastered. The following is a detailed diagnostic feedback on your performance.

You have demonstrated the ability to understand the highest level of texts that the ODA system offers. The current version of ODA does not assess beyond the ability to understand texts on general abstract topics. Therefore, the section on "what you NEED to do next" may contain little or no feedback.
Content Questions*
Current Level
0 100
88.89%

unsatisfactory satisfactory excellent

Linguistic Questions**
Current Level
0 100
60.61%


*Content Questions are all the questions about the meaning of a text, events, details, ideas and arguments.
**Linguistic Questions are those about key vocabulary, sentence structure and relations between ideas.
1 Performance Report - Current Level 3 or higher:
Content Questions
Correct / Total
Main Ideas

3/3
(100%)
understand the main point of an argument in an opinion text


understand texts that advocate one main opinion


interpret the viewpoint or implicit message the author has intended to convey


Supporting Ideas

5/6
(83.3%)
understand the major supporting evidence of the main argument


make inferences about ideas that are indirectly conveyed


evaluate the strength of supporting evidence in relation to the main argument



Linguistic Questions
Vocabulary

14/21
(66.7%)
understand general vocabulary dealing with unfamiliar subjects


understand general abstract vocabulary




Subject Area Breakdown

Politics: political issues (e.g. democracy, corruption, human rights)

4/7
Economy: economic systems and policies

4/7
Society: social structure and relations (e.g. family, class, ethnicity)

6/7
Structure

2/3
(66.7%)
understand complex grammatical relationships within sentences




Structural Feature Breakdown

identify verbs in the present perfect tense that indicate an action “has occurred” in sentences with multiple embeddings, (e.g., était décidée)

0/1
understand how the conditional mood is used to express polite forms or wishes (e.g., pourriez-vous m’aider? ), or to indicate an action that people wish could occur (e.g., je souhaiterais marcher sur la lune.)

1/1
identify verbs in the imperfect tense that indicate an action is repeated in the past (e.g., chaque mercredi, marie-josé jouait avec son frère pendant que leurs parents regardaient la télévision.)

1/1
Discourse

1/3
(33.3%)
understand complex relationships existing between sentences and paragraphs


understand the general cultural shaping of ideas through the use of idiomatic cohesive devices




Discourse Feature Breakdown

recognize how conjunctions shape separate arguments and abstract ideas within and across complex sentences (e.g., malgré son opulence, il est malheureux.)

1/3

2 Performance Report - Target Level beyond 3:
As noted above, no data is available for this section.
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Based on this result, I feel I could pass a C1 exam with relation to reading skills. But further assessment is needed, not only in reading but other areas not yet tested. I'll also report back once completed the listening component of the DLI's ODA
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