Uneven competency in French

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totobaba
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Uneven competency in French

Postby totobaba » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:14 pm

Dear friends,

I beg you for some advice on how to progress in French. I am currently at a B2 level (CEFR). However, my skills are very uneven. My pronunciation is 'perfect' according to my teacher, I am quick in dialogue and give correct responses. Yet, my grammar is very much lacking, I have not mastered using the conjugation of many verbs. My active vocabulary is not enough for me to express myself in normal situations and on economic or political topics even though my passive vocabulary is big enough to allow me to read journal articles in French without problems.

How can I master these skills of actively expressing myself using the words I really mean and all the grammatical sophistication I would like to?
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby tarvos » Sun Nov 20, 2016 6:59 pm

You need to practise active production and writing under stress where you are required to perform at a slightly higher level than you are used to. Push yourself a little bit in your usage.

Furthermore, if you don't know the conjugations well enough, it's time to hit the grammar books. Three weeks of solid grammar study can make all the difference.
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby Thunter » Tue Nov 22, 2016 8:30 pm

If I was in your place I would search for a language exchange partner on Italki.com. While speaking with him/her I would look at different word lists and trying to apply the vocabulary. Furthermore I would read (actively) a good grammar summary on a regular basis.
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby whatiftheblog » Mon Dec 05, 2016 3:28 am

How much time do you spend on listening practice (including watching video content)? How much of a native-level nightly newscast / podcast / vlog / movie / tv series do you typically understand? Obviously production is important, but I think being exposed to more of the spoken language through various engaging means can also help set good mental patterns for you to replicate. I finally understood le subjonctif through song lyrics, for instance...
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby hhiusa » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:15 am

Thunter wrote:If I was in your place I would search for a language exchange partner on Italki.com. While speaking with him/her I would look at different word lists and trying to apply the vocabulary. Furthermore I would read (actively) a good grammar summary on a regular basis.


I don't believe in word lists. A better or a truer form of a word list will be found in a book, like a fiction book. Those are the words that you will encounter more. It also will show the nuances of grammar in the best way, including you name it, the conjugation of verbs such as whether or not to use the indicative versus the subjunctive. This is how infants and children learn their native language. Reading a book is helpful even in your native language because you learn spelling, vocabulary and word placement.

Many believe in the Rosetta Stone method because you are not doing rote memorization.
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby Cavesa » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:14 am

Totobaba, you have found your weakness yourself. Grammar. You are getting practice, you are strong in other areas, but this is the weak link now. The best you can do, from my experience, is to address the weak spot. Get a grammar book and do tons of exercises, go through high quality explanations, look at their examples (on the top of tons of examples you are getting from native input, if you are not avoiding it). Grammaire Progressive is a very popular and efficient series. But there are others by other publishers, using different style of teaching, different kinds of exercises, for example the books by PUG tend to be good.

For verbs, there are other sources as well. Livre Toute la Conjugaison (published by Albin Michel, I think) is great, with great design facilitating learning of the patterns, awesome explanations, and even sense of humour. You can as well use websites focused on conjugation, or there are conjugation drill courses on memrise or anki. I've made quite a complete one, which should be used with ignore button and active selection of what do you wanna learn, not from card 1 to card 3665 http://www.memrise.com/course/738096/co ... -complete/

Of course large amounts of native input are necessary and can affect your active skills too. Just don't expect miracles from the first few hours invested, it is a long-term endeavour. But a very rewarding and fun one.

Infants and children are quite irrelevant, a child is not a small adult, the brain is very different and the learning conditions too. And RS is "trusted" just because of marketing. Things like grammar books or SRS are not the enemy. They are tools that can help us learn faster than without them. Of course they are not necessary, and every learner needs to find their own mix of things that work. But vast majority of strugling learners I've ever met were struggly exactly with the things "modern" methods understimate. Grammar and vocabulary.

I really recommend working on the grammar, as you'll get a huge boulder out of your way and profit from this investment greatly. The earlier you learn the stuff, the better for you in the long run.
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby aokoye » Mon Dec 05, 2016 6:31 am

hhiusa wrote:I don't believe in word lists. A better or a truer form of a word list will be found in a book, like a fiction book. Those are the words that you will encounter more. It also will show the nuances of grammar in the best way, including you name it, the conjugation of verbs such as whether or not to use the indicative versus the subjunctive. This is how infants and children learn their native language. Reading a book is helpful even in your native language because you learn spelling, vocabulary and word placement.

Many believe in the Rosetta Stone method because you are not doing rote memorization.

First language acquisition is amazingly different than second language acquisition which what we're talking about right now. The idea that people learn their L2 the same way as the L1 isn't going to get them (or the people they influence) anywhere. Moreover, reading is great but you also need output. You need to be able to go from comprehension to usage and you need to have interactions in which you are getting feedback on your language usage (both implicit and explicit).
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby rdearman » Mon Dec 05, 2016 4:39 pm

hhiusa wrote:
Thunter wrote:If I was in your place I would search for a language exchange partner on Italki.com. While speaking with him/her I would look at different word lists and trying to apply the vocabulary. Furthermore I would read (actively) a good grammar summary on a regular basis.


I don't believe in word lists. A better or a truer form of a word list will be found in a book, like a fiction book. Those are the words that you will encounter more. It also will show the nuances of grammar in the best way, including you name it, the conjugation of verbs such as whether or not to use the indicative versus the subjunctive. This is how infants and children learn their native language. Reading a book is helpful even in your native language because you learn spelling, vocabulary and word placement.

Many believe in the Rosetta Stone method because you are not doing rote memorization.

The OP is talking about gaining better output, reading is input which wouldn't help.
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby hhiusa » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:21 pm

rdearman wrote:
hhiusa wrote:
Thunter wrote:If I was in your place I would search for a language exchange partner on Italki.com. While speaking with him/her I would look at different word lists and trying to apply the vocabulary. Furthermore I would read (actively) a good grammar summary on a regular basis.


I don't believe in word lists. A better or a truer form of a word list will be found in a book, like a fiction book. Those are the words that you will encounter more. It also will show the nuances of grammar in the best way, including you name it, the conjugation of verbs such as whether or not to use the indicative versus the subjunctive. This is how infants and children learn their native language. Reading a book is helpful even in your native language because you learn spelling, vocabulary and word placement.

Many believe in the Rosetta Stone method because you are not doing rote memorization.

The OP is talking about gaining better output, reading is input which wouldn't help.


What you say makes sense.

I was only noting @Thunter specifically mentioned word lists to increase vocabulary. I do not think that rote memorization of a bunch of words will help. Plus, their is the matter of connotation. Speaking with another person is optimal in my eyes, but reading a book did the same thing for me.

For instance, many dictionaries in many languages have entries similar to this. How would you know which verb is the correct usage for the situation. Books and the like that are already translated would show context.
köra means to drive, but can be used as go. resa means travel, and so on. gå meaning to go, is not always the right choice...
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Re: Uneven competency in French

Postby Cavesa » Mon Dec 05, 2016 5:49 pm

hhiusa wrote:
rdearman wrote:
hhiusa wrote:
Thunter wrote:If I was in your place I would search for a language exchange partner on Italki.com. While speaking with him/her I would look at different word lists and trying to apply the vocabulary. Furthermore I would read (actively) a good grammar summary on a regular basis.


I don't believe in word lists. A better or a truer form of a word list will be found in a book, like a fiction book. Those are the words that you will encounter more. It also will show the nuances of grammar in the best way, including you name it, the conjugation of verbs such as whether or not to use the indicative versus the subjunctive. This is how infants and children learn their native language. Reading a book is helpful even in your native language because you learn spelling, vocabulary and word placement.

Many believe in the Rosetta Stone method because you are not doing rote memorization.

The OP is talking about gaining better output, reading is input which wouldn't help.


What you say makes sense.

I was only noting @Thunter specifically mentioned word lists to increase vocabulary. I do not think that rote memorization of a bunch of words will help. Plus, their is the matter of connotation. Speaking with another person is optimal in my eyes, but reading a book did the same thing for me.

For instance, many dictionaries in many languages have entries similar to this. How would you know which verb is the correct usage for the situation. Books and the like that are already translated would show context.
köra means to drive, but can be used as go. resa means travel, and so on. gå meaning to go, is not always the right choice...
Image
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