Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 22, 2017 2:52 am

Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote: I don't think I learned "that needed taken care of" via mishearing "that needed taking care of" (which I think is wrong, btw - will check later).


It's a very strange game to ask native speakers for help and then when they help you, tell them they are wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/6zh5hua


Expug told me my correction of his Chinese was wrong and I didn't mind.

"It's me", "that needed done" and the dangling preposition are "wrong", too, but natives use them anyway. I felt that "that needed taking care of" was the same (checked now and not wrong).

That's exactly why I say "it's I" - when natives say something 'wrong', it's regionalism (or non-natives shouldn't say he's wrong); when non-natives say the same thing, it's wrong (or both natives and non-natives will say he's wrong).

Why I felt "that needed taking care of" was wrong:
She likes swimming --- she likes, she swimming --- "she swimming" active voice.
She needs loving --- she needs, someone loving her --- "she loving" passive voice yet the sentence looks exactly like the first one.
And English grammar isn't usually like this. Sentences that use different grammar usually look different.

Ani wrote:Then you will just have to keep your register higher and you don't get to say "needed done" or "needed taken care of" :)


OK, but it sounds hard, as "needed done" makes perfect sense - "to be" is often optional, which is why I think people say "needed done". I don't think it originated from mishearing "-ing" as "-en".
--- that seems (to be) true

Now I know to avoid "that needed done", but I'm sure there'll be other traps!
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Xmmm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:24 am

smallwhite wrote:Expug told me my correction of his Chinese was wrong and I didn't mind.


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Last edited by Xmmm on Wed Mar 22, 2017 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:36 am

Xmmm wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Expug told me my correction of his Chinese was wrong and I didn't mind.


You're a native speaker of Cantonese. When did Expug start learning Cantonese?

Or did he correct your Mandarin, a language which is not native for you, as per your profile?

It was irrelevant in this case that I spoke Cantonese at home instead of Mandarin. It's like "hard" is spelt "hard" whether you roll your R's or not. I was telling him he mispelt the word and he told me it could be spelt either way. But I didn't mind.

In any case, did you really mean

> It's a very strange game to ask native speakers for help and then when they help you, tell them they are wrong.

or did you actually mean "It's a very strange game to ask someone for help and then when they help you, tell them they are wrong"?
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Xmmm » Wed Mar 22, 2017 4:58 am

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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Ani » Wed Mar 22, 2017 8:06 am

smallwhite wrote:OK, but it sounds hard, as "needed done" makes perfect sense - "to be" is often optional, which is why I think people say "needed done". I don't think it originated from mishearing "-ing" as "-en".
--- that seems (to be) true

Now I know to avoid "that needed done", but I'm sure there'll be other traps!



I find it hard to believe this one particular usage will be difficult for you as I think I've seen you write one mistake in the last year, outside of the It's/ It was discussion from this thread. :lol: Another option is to switch to the "It's me" or "It was me" common form in speaking and remember the "It is/was I" to be used in writing. That would be one rule to apply more broadly instead of memorizing something that feels like an exception. Also in the "hard to believe" category is how you could be worried about losing points on an English exam. Think I've said it before but your writing is indistinguishable from a native speaker's.
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby tmgbeu » Tue Mar 28, 2017 10:25 pm

smallwhite wrote:Why I felt "that needed taking care of" was wrong:


While this discussion may be done, it was interesting enough to me to finally sign up for an account :)

As a British English speaker, 'That needed done' and sounds incongruous - without having read this thread, I'd assume it were a regional or colloquial American usage. 'That needed taken care of' sounds waaay off, though in speech someone might assume you're saying 'takin' care of'.

Common and suitable (eg what would parse as 'correct' or otherwise not raise any eyebrows) versions for British English would be:
1. 'That needed doing'
2. 'That needed to be done'
3. 'That needed to be taken care of'
4. 'That needed taking care of'

I'm not too clued in on grammatical terms, but as you seem to be coming at this from a perspective of trying to understand and predict according grammatical logical, I suspect the issue might revolve around the gerund. That is, a verb used as a noun.

'Taking care of' is, in the example above, being used as a noun phrase, with 'taking' as the gerund. This might be clearer in a sentence such as 'His taking care of me when I was ill was much appreciated' (though this itself is a higher register use - many would say 'Him taking care of me when I was ill was...' or just 'He took care of me and it was appreciated').

So, in 1 and 3 we're not trying to conjugate 'doing' or 'taking' as if they were used as verbs, as they are fulfilling their noun form in these instances.

For 2, I'm less sure, but I'm aware 'done' is here an adjective, and 'need(s/ed)' is followed by 'to be' in standard English.

Quick info on gerund: http://www.ef.co.uk/english-resources/e ... ar/gerund/
Interesting article on usage of 'needs/wants/likes' without 'to be': http://microsyntax.sites.yale.edu/needs-washed

I hope someone will correct me if I'm mistaken!
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby smallwhite » Sat Nov 11, 2017 11:06 am

How do you shout for help in these situations?

Eg. There's a fire. - "Fire!"

1. Someone forced you to give them your money and is now running away with it.
2. Someone snatched your handbag and is now running away with it.
3. A man exposes himself.
4. A man touches your bum on purpose on the train.

In Cantonese in Hong Kong, you shout:
0. 火燭呀!
1. 打劫呀!
2. 搶o野呀! maybe 打劫呀! as well, I'm not sure.
3. No idea, maybe 變態佬呀!
4. 非禮呀!

Thanks :)
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby rdearman » Sat Nov 11, 2017 3:50 pm

Probably not correct, but what I would say.

1. Police !
2. Is not my handbag! It's a bomb!
3. Oh my god! It is so small, I didn't think they could be so small.
4. Touch me again and you'll pull back a stump.
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Adrianslont » Sun Nov 12, 2017 9:24 pm

smallwhite wrote:How do you shout for help in these situations?

Eg. There's a fire. - "Fire!"

1. Someone forced you to give them your money and is now running away with it.
2. Someone snatched your handbag and is now running away with it.
3. A man exposes himself.
4. A man touches your bum on purpose on the train.

In Cantonese in Hong Kong, you shout:
0. 火燭呀!
1. 打劫呀!
2. 搶o野呀! maybe 打劫呀! as well, I'm not sure.
3. No idea, maybe 變態佬呀!
4. 非禮呀!

Thanks :)

To answer your question generally/linguistically, one could shout - but is obviously not limited to:

1: "Help, thief!"
2: "Help, thief!" "Stop, thief!"
3: "Put it away. What would your mother say." This would not actually be shouted but said in a very businesslike manner. Or if there are people around and you want to make sure they hear, say it very loudly and maybe add the words, "you pervert."
4: "If you touch me again, I'm going straight to the guard." Again, loud enough for plenty of people to hear - I guess the train is pretty crowded.

I hope you are only asking these questions theoretically, smallwhite! Or maybe as research for some fiction you are writing!

Personally, I wouldn't say these things but I'm male and unlikely to meet situations 3 and 4 and maybe less likely to meet 1 and 2 also.

Still, I wouldn't necessarily give the above answers as real life advice to women either. Here are my real life answers as opposed to linguistic answers. And as we both live in Sydney, my answers are quite contextualised.

1. Someone forced you? They had superior strength or a weapon? Call the police and if there are other decent people around ask for their sympathy and help (if you lost your phone in the incident!). Don't chase them, you've already lost your money. Don't enlist the help of others who may get hurt or worse.

2. See number 1. Maybe if the culprit is just a kid and obviously has no weapon and there are physically capable looking people around you could yell for help.

I'm not a very confrontational person but it's more than that. I'm familiar with the story of a young man who chased a bag snatcher in Sydney when a woman called, "Stop, thief". He got stabbed and died. There was $5 in the woman's bag. Not worth it - how much would be? I was acquainted with the young man's widow - they were not long married and she was pregnant with his first child.

3. Move away. Move to an area with people in it. Maybe find a decent looking person, preferably a large male, and tell them what's going on. I've been around this situation - a young woman came up to me in a quiet train carriage years ago - in Sydney - and said a young man had exposed himself to her and could she sit with me. Of course, she could. The young man who was at the other end of the carriage grinned stupidly and got off at the next stop. Maybe I should have done more but at least everyone was safe.

4. On a crowded train, it's probably pretty safe and a good idea to speak up as suggested above. I'm sure many women would find it intimidating, though.

Cheers
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Re: Smallwhite needs help with English expressions

Postby Ani » Sun Nov 12, 2017 10:21 pm

1. Would not yell, but I guess "stop thief!" would be expected in a movie. I'd just ask someone to borrow their phone, assuming the person took that too, and call a friend for a ride & go write a police report.
2. Stop thief works here too. Would not use the same tense as Morgana. I'd say "He stole my __"
3. Again I don't see myself shouting but maybe if I had to get attention "pervert!"
4."get your hand the f___ off of me"
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