Discouraged with Italian(s)...

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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Aug 23, 2016 11:00 pm

qeadz wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:The example btw you gave of the Korean air hostesses makes me proud that at least one culture out there prefers their own language despite the fact it comes of rude. Why should the whole world bow to English? (i'm not suggesting you are suggesting that, I'm adding this comment). We all ought to value our own cultures more.


I agree to the extent that people should value their own cultures (and languages) more. I'd stop at the suggestion that such pride should give the person recourse to feel justified in unnecessarily impeding communication.


Then should the entire European Union simply speak English then? I don't mean this in a rude way. And I'm not meaning to be abrasive or rude either. What i'm suggesting is, that if we keep taking the easy route, one that facilitates communication, then a lot of languages are in danger, or endangered. And for the record I think this is exactly why a lot of languages die out, because it's just easier to communicate in the larger lingua franca, whatever that may be. And to add to this, this is why it sorely disappoints me how much English is spreading. I see it as dangerous- the danger being a world in which American/British culture dominates. It has advantages indeed, but if we bow to the easier situation continuously, more and more langauges are likely to at the very least fall out of favour. Might seem extreme, but many small seemingly irrelavant conversations can quickly become one loud mass. Many may disagree with me, i don't disagree with me. I just want to get along with myself, even if I have to speak French to my English self ;)

Edit:
qeadz wrote:
It reminds me of my visit to Paris in which I visited a restaurant with other friends - all foreign. The only language we had in common was English (others were from Romania and such). We had a hard time getting our orders through a waiter who apparently only knew French. After ordering I wanted to find the washroom and struggled through that process. Upon returning from the washroom I passed that same waiter at another table who was happily chatting in fluent English.

I felt so bad since I had tried to be so polite, thanking him multiple times, and generally believing that he didn't have a good grasp on English. I'm sorry people from France. I'm sure many of you are really nice people, but to most of the French people I had the misfortune of needing to communicate with in Paris I give the middle finger.


I can certainly see how this could be upsetting. The only thing that could come to mind is that I have heard some Parisians might take a disliking to rude people, and in conversation I have heard Americans can be a little abrupt with Parisians or almost 'expectant' when it comes to speaking English and have been known to approach Parisians without any politeness when asking for directions etc. I'm sure this has happened with other nationalities as well, but the examples I have come across was regarding Americans (I have read about this, and one French person told me the way they felt about 'rude' Americans, not all Americans and how they dilberately would not help them in such a case, or give wrong directions). Obviously you weren't being rude, so I can only conclude that this person has a disdain for Americans in general for whatever reason, one of which might have been that she'd been approached in a way she felt was rude one too many times. I'm sure 'abrupt' Americans are unaware of the way they are coming across in most situations and if were aware of it, would likley change their approach I'd like to think. It seems it's a cultural misunderstanding for the most part. In your defence, the waiter you spoke of was being rude considering he/she was happy to speak at another table in English.
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Wed Aug 24, 2016 1:23 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby tommus » Wed Aug 24, 2016 12:20 am

I agree with the general rule that visitors to a country should be given the opportunity to speak (or try to speak) the local language. And that obviously should also include visitors to English-speaking countries.

When that doesn't happen, here is one approach that I have often thought of but never actually tried. Have a short statement prepared (memorised if necessary) in an obscure and very "foreign-sounding" language. When a local tries to switch into English, answer with this statement as if it were your native language. In other words, pretend you don't know any English (or whatever language the local wants to switch into).

A related approach would be to use some very advanced or nonsensical English. So when you ask in a pretty good version of the local language "Can you tell me about this interesting attraction?", and they reply in English, then continue in English like this: "Could you illucidate on the indubitably desultory paraphernalia that incogitably, assiduously and veritably abjured the transcendent asseverate today or next week." It doesn't have to make any sense. In fact, it is even better if it doesn't. But maybe don't overdo it like I have here. Just make it very challenging to understand. Hopefully, they will now switch back to their local language.
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby qeadz » Wed Aug 24, 2016 4:53 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:... and in conversation I have heard Americans can be a little abrupt with Parisians or almost 'expectant' when it comes to speaking English and have been known to approach Parisians without any politeness when asking for directions etc.


It's true - biases do exist. I don't want to fill up this thread with "stories from when I was traveling" but during my backpacking journey through Germany with a friend, we discovered on day 2 that there was a night and day difference in how people treated us when they found out we were not British. So letting people know we were from New Zealand did wonders in multiple situations for improving their demeanor toward us.

So to tie this all back in to the original thread, I guess sometimes people have biases either based on their own previous experiences or perhaps that of the community in general and they will project a stereotype onto anyone they meet. Its natural. We all do it. But it may well affect how a person, community, town, or even people group will want to treat any interchange or exchange which takes place.
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby language2015 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:43 am

qeadz wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:The example btw you gave of the Korean air hostesses makes me proud that at least one culture out there prefers their own language despite the fact it comes of rude. Why should the whole world bow to English? (i'm not suggesting you are suggesting that, I'm adding this comment). We all ought to value our own cultures more.


I agree to the extent that people should value their own cultures (and languages) more. I'd stop at the suggestion that such pride should give the person recourse to feel justified in unnecessarily impeding communication.

It reminds me of my visit to Paris in which I visited a restaurant with other friends - all foreign. The only language we had in common was English (others were from Romania and such). We had a hard time getting our orders through a waiter who apparently only knew French. After ordering I wanted to find the washroom and struggled through that process. Upon returning from the washroom I passed that same waiter at another table who was happily chatting in fluent English.

I felt so bad since I had tried to be so polite, thanking him multiple times, and generally believing that he didn't have a good grasp on English. I'm sorry people from France. I'm sure many of you are really nice people, but to most of the French people I had the misfortune of needing to communicate with in Paris I give the middle finger.

Anyway I shall stop derailing this thread. I believe there was an OP somewhere and he was probably saying something... :)


lol

Can he read english as well as he speaks because I would have written the word zero on the line where you write the tip amount.
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby language2015 » Wed Aug 24, 2016 5:46 am

tommus wrote:I agree with the general rule that visitors to a country should be given the opportunity to speak (or try to speak) the local language. And that obviously should also include visitors to English-speaking countries.

When that doesn't happen, here is one approach that I have often thought of but never actually tried. Have a short statement prepared (memorised if necessary) in an obscure and very "foreign-sounding" language. When a local tries to switch into English, answer with this statement as if it were your native language. In other words, pretend you don't know any English (or whatever language the local wants to switch into).

A related approach would be to use some very advanced or nonsensical English. So when you ask in a pretty good version of the local language "Can you tell me about this interesting attraction?", and they reply in English, then continue in English like this: "Could you illucidate on the indubitably desultory paraphernalia that incogitably, assiduously and veritably abjured the transcendent asseverate today or next week." It doesn't have to make any sense. In fact, it is even better if it doesn't. But maybe don't overdo it like I have here. Just make it very challenging to understand. Hopefully, they will now switch back to their local language.


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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby arthaey » Wed Aug 24, 2016 6:18 am

tommus wrote:here is one approach that I have often thought of but never actually tried. Have a short statement prepared (memorised if necessary) in an obscure and very "foreign-sounding" language. When a local tries to switch into English, answer with this statement as if it were your native language. In other words, pretend you don't know any English (or whatever language the local wants to switch into).

I have long wanted to try this out, but with one of my own invented languages. That way, there really is zero chance of anyone else just happening to speak the "obscure" language. :P

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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby lukbe » Wed Aug 24, 2016 8:14 am

tommus wrote:A related approach would be to use some very advanced or nonsensical English. So when you ask in a pretty good version of the local language "Can you tell me about this interesting attraction?", and they reply in English, then continue in English like this: "Could you illucidate on the indubitably desultory paraphernalia that incogitably, assiduously and veritably abjured the transcendent asseverate today or next week." It doesn't have to make any sense. In fact, it is even better if it doesn't. But maybe don't overdo it like I have here. Just make it very challenging to understand. Hopefully, they will now switch back to their local language.


I'd find this sort of behaviour rather disrespectful. Even more so considering that person's English might be better than you give credit for, and may result in that person feeling like you are mocking him. And it reminds me of the kind of people that might purposefully speak fast or using more difficult language in an attempt to make a foreign speaker of his language realize he can't speak it (I've had the experience, and it's unpleasant).
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby dampingwire » Sat Aug 27, 2016 9:22 am

garyb wrote:Regarding using Italian in Italy, Rome is the only place where many people have insisted on English with me. Also as a tourist I just found it quite unwelcoming and like everyone was trying to take advantage. Even in other very touristy places like Florence I didn't have these problems. Rome is beautiful and absolutely worth visiting, but especially for an Italian learner I'd recommend going elsewhere first.


Coming back from Naples airport yesterday the conversation with the guy at the second check-in desk was almost 100% him speaking (good) English and me replying 100% in Italian. That didn't worry me: we were a party of four, we were speaking English amongst ourselves and I'd just handed over 4 UK passports. Then, as he was handing over the boarding passes, he explained again (at length) that the seat numbers had changed and that was all down to the plane having been altered at the last minute and I said that was all fine as long as we were all still seated together etc. That last thirty seconds was in high-speed back-and-forth Italian. So either he got distracted by the interruptions from the other staff and forgot to switch or he couldn't hack complaining about some fool swapping planes on him at the last minute and making his life difficult all in English or he just plain forgot to stick to English.

At the train station in Sorrento I bought some tickets and the whole conversation was in Italian. At end he wrote down 21.26. "Oh is that the time of the last train back" I asked, "No, that's the price". I can't really explain that one. There were other numbers on the paper and he'd (I then realised) done exactly the same thing with the guy in front, who was a native Italian tourist, so maybe it was an automatic reflex. When my wife went to ask for a timetable at the same station the next day, she had to wave me over. She'd found the only person in Sorrento who didn't speak English :-)

The shops and restaurants mostly spoke in English, until I asked something that required an answer that they were happier to give in Italian.

I expect that, especially in a touristy situation, most people expect to have to speak in English and, if that works, it's just less hassle for them to carry on in English. Certainly when I was in a group of English speakers, I'd mostly get answers back in English, unless the reply was going to be complicated. So there was no English involved when buying sea-sickness tablets or blister plasters in the chemists, for example.
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby Cavesa » Sun Aug 28, 2016 1:47 am

Lots of truth here in the thread. It is quite a challenge to write here without writing a hundred pages but I'll try.

1:Not even non natives are spared English langauge banditry.

a very unpleasant example:
A few years ago, I spent one month in Spain. A student exchange. A mixed group of spaniards and various foreigners.
A nice walk through the city, a czech and a french together, could you imagine a less risky setting?
The french girl's Spanish was even worse than mine (my active skills were horrible but the natives still had no trouble talking to me and not only due to the fact most spoke English really bad. Even those able to choose were usually chosing Spanish with me and we had fun). Neither of us was a native English speaker or at least totally great without an accent. And still, she told me: "I haven't come here to speak French."

That hurt my pride just like (or more than) those dozens of native French speakers in France, who had been basically repeating a message "We don't care how many years and how much money you've flushed down the toilet while attempting to learn French. YOu are a stupid worthless foreign worm who cannot ever learn much than a few phrases with mistakes. Of course you can't speak French better than we speak English, even if we have trouble putting a sentence together. And we don't care you have paid quite a lot and spend money in our country instead of another because of an opportunity to speak , just pay and answer in English like a good stupid foreigner knowing her place."

2.Touristy places are the worst, capitals are horrible. Smaller towns in France are much better than Paris, I guess it might be similar with Italian. Go to less touristy places and people will be probably excited to talk in Italian with a foreigner. Spaniards are without a trouble. Even Germans (and in Berlin!) had no trouble with my really crappy German.

Go alone. I learnt to be stubborn enough to get through the French attempts to swith the conversation to English. Sure, waiters don't matter, if we only exchange ten words, there is not time or need to switch. But for all the other uses, people don't switch anymore. Not only I have improved, I have grown stubborn and it helps. But what doesn't help is my family. Yes, people have trouble computing (Error. Error. Great metaphore, EMK!) that a foreigner can speak their langauge. But imagine the mess in their heads that a foreigner talking to their family in some slavic language (I think the stigma of central/eastern europe plays a role too) knows something else than bad English! So, leave your English/anything family alone for a while or simply get extra stubborn.

3.I also hate the compliments "You speak good French/anything". It feels offensive. Like being patted on head like a dog that has learnt a simple trick. It is a feeling "oh, do I really sound like a naive beginner in need of a polite encouraging lie? Am I really so bad I can't be treated like a normal human being?" :-D

Another similar trouble is something I've realized a few days ago. The French often assume you cannot speak/understand more than "un petit peu". Last year: I was asked whether I could read "un petit peu" French, after an hour of talking with a police officer (and despite imperfections really well, considering the nerves right after the theft of my handbag with my documents and some treasured personal stuff) and even correcting his French typoes. A few days ago: in a touristy building (so much for the defense of the old man), a guide asked whether I can speak "un petit peu" French after several sentences of totally non-phrasebookish conversation. I can't remember exactly how I answered but still. No, I don't speak "un petit peu" French, I've invested lots of time in it, I have the highest level exam you can get, I occassionally work as a translator, I use it for many purposes just as easily as my native language. I've just proven to you I CAN speak it and probably better than you can speak any foreign langauge. Put your "un petit peu Français" where the sun doesn't shine. Of course, this could be a matter of politeness as some nations rarely brag. But could French really be among those nations, afraid of officially knowing anything more than "un petit peu"?

4.Of course you'll get to use the language in the country, once you leave not only the touristy areas, but as well the most common touristy dialogues. Do you trully think most people, despite all the ESL [s]propaganda[/s] PR, get much further than most English natives learning other langagues? Yes, people studying at universities do. But the others often stay well within the standard several situtions happening at work and that's it. Need something more? Awesome, you can talk in the local langauge! Really. Now in France and a few years later in Spanish, the local language turned out to be much more than a nice bonus. Perhaps not a necessity as many things can be handled in broken English. But my skills made everything much faster, much more efficient, much more enjoyable for both sides. And I think Italians are one of the best nations for talking as lots and lots of them are really bad at English!

5.I think it is too early to get trully angry at the switching natives at the intermediate level. It is highly offensive at the C levels. But around B1, we could still count in their favour that they see the low level as an obstacle to doing their job as fast and smoothly as possible. So, you don't need them to get to the solid B2 or better C levels. You don't need to talk to other people to get there at all, if you don't want to. (Yes, take a tutor if you want, etc etc, I don't want another thread ruined into a similar discussion to many others).

Until you get there, enjoy the other stuff. After all, most books are much more interesting than most people :-D

6.I don't think "support your local cultures" is such a great advice, despite having a grain of truth inside.

I think most English natives don't realize how much are the other cultures being pushed aside. The originally anglophone series are the most watched not because of someone forcing people to watch them (even though not putting many others on tv is partially that). The US and UK simply produce so much stuff they can please most tastes and lots of objectively great stuff comes from the enormous amount of production. Should I watch crappy czech tv series instead? The best one won't ever get a second season as the american owner of the czech channel won't give money on it for their reasons. The other one or two contemporary not bad series are remakes of foreign ones, is it still Czech culture? Music. Supporting czech musicians and bands? Yes, there are a few exceptions of good ones, fitting my tastes. But apart from those, supporting czech bands means either supporting musicians singing in English, or supporting crap, or both at ones. Books? Yes, I buy and read some czech authors. But in most cases, it is the same as the previous examples.

Talking about the Czech example: our culture is already supported more than it currently deserves. Pretending it is awesome, while it is in crisis, that is not likely to help.

What we could do and what would help: spreading other cultures like the anglophone spreads. At least within the EU. The cultural exchange is highly limited. Especially thanks to totally wrong and twisted ideas and laws concerning copyright, regionalized internet content and such. As long as whole EU can't normally watch a new French comedy or a new Swedish thriller in their cinemas just as often as an american movie (comparing the amount of whole EU to the amount of imported US stuff), nothing is gonna change. As long as radio stations and tv channels don't get some courage, nothing will change. And I could continue.

7.There is a "English is the most important langauge" self-fulfilling prophecy. Most people learn English because the believe they need it, as was said. But it is so illogical. They want to use their (often weak) skills for practice and they are proud of them, ok. But it would be much better, had they learned easier and subjectively more useful languages instead. In many cases. I am convinced English is much harder for natives of various european languages than other european langauges. It is so common to see a Czech spending lots of money trying to learn English, and often with not that great result. But the person goes to Croatia or Italy every year (and Italians are bad at English as well) and that is their only opporutity /need to communicate with a non-czech native (believe it or not, you can happily live in a small country and still not need to meet foreigners at all). Or they are living near the German borders and can't find a job in their field in the Czech Republic, and they are still learning English instead as "English leads to better jobs". Similarily, I've just met a cleaning lady in France, who can't speak French, only Spanish and some really broken and unusable English. A Polish and Czech native business partners are likely to speak English together.

8.Iversen's experience with the aquarium employee is not that rare. A friend lived in Japan for a year and could speak the langauge, she had learnt it well enough to do all the usual stuff in it. A native Czech speaker. But we were in an aquarium (what a coincidence :-) ). And an employee insisted on using English with her without need. Firstly white=English (we were taken for americans various times and it was not always pleasant, given the context). Secondly "Japanese is too hard for foreigners, she can't be speaking it". Thirdly: "I was hired for my English skills."
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Re: Discouraged with Italian(s)...

Postby dampingwire » Sun Aug 28, 2016 7:55 am

Cavesa wrote: "Japanese is too hard for foreigners, she can't be speaking it"


Yup. I'm doing a good job of proving that :-)

Reading between the lines, I think you're a little miffed by the apparent attitude of some French people towards your spoken French.

I'd suggest that getting upset won't change anything, so it's probably not productive. Just keep speaking French back at them. If the conversation still makes sense, then you're obviously holding up your end of the conversation quite well. It's not worth letting other people's attitudes get under your skin. Enjoy the opportunity of using your French production even if the reception side of things is less used: the glass is best seen as half full ...
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