French In Action, as a learning device?

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
User avatar
PeterMollenburg
Black Belt - 3rd Dan
Posts: 3229
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2015 11:54 am
Location: Australia
Languages: English (N), French (B2-certified), Dutch (High A2?), Spanish (~A1), German (long-forgotten 99%), Norwegian (false starts in 2020 & 2021)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=18080
x 8029

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:03 am

smallwhite wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:having a native speaker on hand during a good chunk of my learning would make a massive difference. ... Having a native speaker on hand would really boost the passive language use into active use rather efficiently.

That would be emk (French wife), qeadz (Korean wife) and other members living in-country. Funny they always say the difference is minimal.

Perhaps they simply don't realise that there is a key element that could go undetected- passive knowledge is much more effectively activitated than without that native speaker on hand, provided they are actually speaking that language with them.

However I was in particular meaning that with the FSI there is not only a native speaker, but one who is there with a sole objective to improve your language skills. That is a very powerful asset.

Back outside the FSI, for those in a relationship/living with a family member who is a native speaker of the langauge they are learning, I could imagine that some people's family members would help a lot while others not at all in this respect. My father is Dutch, he never spoke the language with me until I had learned some, and even then he has not been a good resource at all. Of course, being married to a Dutch speaker might indeed be a very different situation, even if just to activitate passive knowledge- that helps a lot.

smallwhite wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:... a pretty dedicated continuous steep learning curve...

aka "leaving the comfort zone", which a lot of us refuse to do (and don't even realise it).

Indeed ;)
1 x

User avatar
smallwhite
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2386
Joined: Mon Jul 06, 2015 6:55 am
Location: Hong Kong
Languages: Native: Cantonese;
Good: English, French, Spanish, Italian;
Mediocre: Mandarin, German, Swedish, Dutch.
.
x 4876

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby smallwhite » Sun Apr 23, 2017 11:08 am

Elexi wrote:My impression from articles like the link below was that during the period of intensive study (4+ months) at FSI candidates did 5 hours every day of classroom activity and then the rest of the day doing grammar and language lab studies:

I know, about 8 hours a day, so it can't be too intense. Oh, I mean the work they do during the 8 hours can't be too demanding. You probably mean that studying for 8 hours a day is intense enough, whatever they do during those 8 hours.
0 x
Dialang or it didn't happen.

User avatar
blaurebell
Blue Belt
Posts: 840
Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 1:24 pm
Location: Spain
Languages: German (N), English (C2), Spanish (B2-C1), French (B2+ passive), Italian (A2), Russian (Beginner)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=3235
x 2240

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby blaurebell » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:18 pm

smallwhite wrote:aka "leaving the comfort zone", which a lot of us refuse to do (and don't even realise it).


I totally agree with you smallwhite, getting to the point where we are willing to get out of our comfort zone is sometimes very difficult! The other day I listened to a little video of Luca where he speaks about the B2 gap. He said that at B2 we are at a point where what we did before doesn't really work anymore and we have to do things differently to make further progress - read things we wouldn't normally read, watch things that we wouldn't normally watch, speak about uncomfortable subjects and generally get out of our comfort zone. I thought that this was really sound advice. Basically my study plan for Spanish now contains mostly stuff outside of my comfort zone, because I've been stuck at B2+, i.e. B2 plateau, way too long now.

As for time estimates: I used to read a lot about efficiency and productivity and I became fascinated by this notion that you can get to 80% in 20% of the time and the remaining 20% take the longest. Basically perfectionism tends to be a huge time sink. My supervisor at university used to say to me "Have the courage to leave gaps" and it's my mantra now. I still fail at it badly, but it's not as bad as it used to be. One can spend unlimited amounts of time perfecting grammar skills before actually starting to use the language in any real way. I tend to start super early with native content precisely because my tendency would be to go on a course mission and then spend ages on low frequency grammar concepts that are better tackled at B2-C1 after plenty of exposure. Basically I jump in at the deep end with native content after 80% grammar to outwit my own perfectionist tendencies. It's really uncomfortable most of the time, but it works for me.

As for Benny and his Fluent in 3 months, it's simply another application of the 80-20 rule I mentioned above, although in this case a misguided one. Instead of jumping into native content after a quick 80% grammar overview he jumps into speaking without giving the language learning machine in his head any input at all. As a result he speaks without the vague "that sounds wrong" mistake detection mechanism in place and starts feeding his language learning machine so many mistakes that the result can only involve fossilised mistakes. Of course he can get to B2 in 3 months in this way, at least with easy languages, but afterwards he will remain at B2 forever because he broke the language learning machine in the process by feeding it mostly incorrect input at a vulnerable stage. Correcting the damage of such a learning strategy might be very time-consuming and difficult later on - some even think that it's impossible to correct. If getting his meaning across is all he wants, that's fine. For me it's not enough though. Even when I try to outwit my own perfectionism, it still remains there, judging me all the time, so C2 output is the goal for me always.

As for numbers - up to B2 they match class room hours quite well because of the 80-20 rule. Once you try for C1 you are reaching those last 20% that take the longest though. Decreasing returns means that you can easily spend 1000h on input - especially if you avoid reading - and still not hit a solid C1 comprehension. The problem here is the efficiency of acquiring low frequency vocabulary and if you don't have some sort of exceptional ability to pick up vocabulary easily from spoken language it's super inefficient to try to get there without reading a lot - 20,000 pages seems to be some sort of C1 consensus. Even at average native reading speed of 200wpm - about a minute per page - this would take more than 300h. My first 5000 pages intensive reading in French took me 330h and since then I've been averaging 1.5-2 minutes a page extensive reading. I can probably calculate up to 800h just for the first 20,000 pages of French. With Spanish I still have some substantial gaps in some regional slang / accents after almost 700h of TV, so I now aim to reach 1500h of TV to make my C1 level listening comprehension a bit more solid. French isn't quite as extreme with regional variations so maybe 1000h suffice? Add to this grammar instruction / courses, speaking and writing and we're already at 2000-2500h+ total just for a solid C1.

Judging from my experiences with English C2 near native university level comprehension actually takes thousands of hours of input alone. 50,000-100,000 pages, several thousand hours of TV, radio, lectures. And aiming for more than a medium sized novel in output (50,000 words) is also a good bet for near native writing skills! Of course speaking all day every day in all sorts of registers would also be necessary. It would be hard to estimate how long it really took to reach C2 in my case. Even with a rough estimate I'm well beyond 5000h though!

And with all these numbers I don't actually talk about passing proficiency exams, getting away with less for exams is probably possible. I mean actual honest self-assessment here.

So, A2 after 8 months and 800h doesn't actually have to be a sign of slow learning, you're probably just very thorough Carmody! You will probably have benefits from this style of learning once you approach the B2 plateau and you might not even experience a plateau at all. That's what my experience with English was like because I over-learned grammar in school. Other people leave gaps and spend just as much time trying to close the gaps / correct their learning mistakes later on! And as always there is only a fine line that separates efficiency from sloppiness.
10 x
: 20 / 100 Дэвид Эддингс - В поисках камня
: 14325 / 35000 LWT Known

: 17 / 55 FSI Spanish Basic
: 100 / 116 GdUdE B
: 8 / 72 Duolingo reverse Spanish -> German

Elexi
Green Belt
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:39 pm
Languages: English (N), French (B1), German (A2), Latin (eternal beginner), Dutch (Aspires to find the time).
x 645

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Elexi » Sun Apr 23, 2017 12:57 pm

Maybe this thread could go back on topic - i.e. French in Action as a learning device?
1 x

Hugo
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Apr 21, 2017 3:43 pm
Languages: American English (N)
French A1
x 4

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Hugo » Sun Apr 23, 2017 3:01 pm

Elexi

I believe you did FIA and I am wondering:
-how long you took to finish it
-what level you started it at
-and what level you ended at after finishing FIA.
Thanks.
2 x

Elexi
Green Belt
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:39 pm
Languages: English (N), French (B1), German (A2), Latin (eternal beginner), Dutch (Aspires to find the time).
x 645

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Elexi » Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:35 am

I was probably just in the A2 level when I started FIA - it took me 2 years to complete FIA - but I did it alongside other courses and materials - watching TV series (mainly dubbed - children's cartoons, Buffy, Star Trek, Dr Who, etc and some native films), reading the CLE and Hachette graded readers, the Latitudes series of FLE books, the PMP exercise books - etc. I would say that FIA helped me to B1.
9 x

User avatar
Carmody
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:00 am
Location: NYC, NY
Languages: English (N)
French (B1)
Language Log: http://tinyurl.com/zot7wrs
x 3395

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Carmody » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:29 pm

Elexi,

When you have a moment could you possibly discuss
Hachette graded readers, the Latitudes series of FLE books, the PMP exercise books - etc.
I believe they are all new to me. Which shows how much I have to learn......

Thanks.
Last edited by Carmody on Mon Apr 24, 2017 11:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
2 x

User avatar
luke
Brown Belt
Posts: 1243
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (B1), French (intermediate but rusting)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=16948
x 3631

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby luke » Mon Apr 24, 2017 8:56 pm

Elexi wrote:I was probably just in the A2 level when I started FIA - it took me 2 years to complete FIA - but I did it alongside other courses and materials - watching TV series (mainly dubbed - children's cartoons, Buffy, Star Trek, Dr Who, etc and some native films), reading the CLE and Hachette graded readers, the Latitudes series of FLE books, the PMP exercise books - etc. I would say that FIA helped me to B1.


After all of that, I'd think you'd be solidly in B2. What gives?
1 x
: 124 / 124 Cien años de soledad 20x
: 5479 / 5500 5500 pages - Reading
: 51 / 55 FSI Basic Spanish 3x
: 309 / 506 Camino a Macondo

Elexi
Green Belt
Posts: 271
Joined: Wed Aug 19, 2015 9:39 pm
Languages: English (N), French (B1), German (A2), Latin (eternal beginner), Dutch (Aspires to find the time).
x 645

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Elexi » Tue Apr 25, 2017 8:42 am

Maybe I am - but I only have a B1 certificate :D

Having read emk's blog, I definitely need to work on getting my speaking and hearing more fluid to pass B2. My writing would probably come short as well.
3 x

User avatar
Carmody
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1747
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:00 am
Location: NYC, NY
Languages: English (N)
French (B1)
Language Log: http://tinyurl.com/zot7wrs
x 3395

Re: French In Action, as a learning device?

Postby Carmody » Tue May 02, 2017 5:51 pm

Just a friendly reminder to everyone out there who has the Workbooks for FIA, they are great review tools.

If by chance you started FIA and stopped it then fine. No problem. But if you still have the Workbooks around they are great to just sit down with and read for the rules and examples that they show. I am not suggesting using audio files or doing the exercises. Rather just read through for the rules and examples and pick up from it what you need. Some will be new and some old, but it is a useful refresher for some obscure rules you may have forgotten.
4 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests