Michel Thomas German questions

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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Kraut » Sun Jul 30, 2023 9:36 pm

There are specialised chatbots at poe.com, one is Deutschbot77

https://poe.com/Deutschbot77

Its answer is wrong. The meaning is almost the same. "Die" just has more emphasis.

Was ist der Unterschied zwischen "Sie bleiben zu Hause." und "Die bleiben zu Hause.", z.B. als Antwort auf die Frage "Was machen deine Kinder in den Ferien?"

Wenn man die Frage "Was machen deine Kinder in den Ferien?" mit "Sie bleiben zu Hause." beantwortet, bedeutet dies, dass man über seine eigenen Kinder spricht und dass sie in den Ferien zu Hause bleiben. "Sie" bezieht sich in diesem Fall auf eine bestimmte Gruppe von Personen, nämlich die eigenen Kinder.

Wenn man jedoch mit "Die bleiben zu Hause." antwortet, wird der Satz allgemeiner und bezieht sich nicht auf eine bestimmte Gruppe von Personen. "Die" bezieht sich in diesem Fall auf eine unbestimmte Gruppe von Personen, auf die man keine näheren Informationen hat. Man könnte dies als eine allgemeine Aussage verstehen, dass viele Kinder in den Ferien zu Hause bleiben.
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby leosmith » Thu Aug 03, 2023 7:23 pm

I'm in the 20's in the Intermediate Course now. He keeps coming up with complicated sentences, with nuances that I would rarely use in English, so I'm a bit discouraged that I'm not learning the easier sentences.
Ex: He has not wanted to do it. = Ich hätte es nicht tun können.
Wouldn't the following be heard more often?
He didn't want to do it. = Er hat es nicht tun wollen.
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Le Baron » Thu Aug 03, 2023 7:45 pm

leosmith wrote:I'm in the 20's in the Intermediate Course now. He keeps coming up with complicated sentences, with nuances that I would rarely use in English, so I'm a bit discouraged that I'm not learning the easier sentences.
Ex: He has not wanted to do it. = Ich hätte es nicht tun können.
Wouldn't the following be heard more often?
He didn't want to do it. = Er hat es nicht tun wollen.

They're different sentences though. The first one is 'can' (not) the second is 'will' (not).
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Doitsujin » Thu Aug 03, 2023 8:09 pm

leosmith wrote:Ich hätte es nicht tun können.
I would've translated this as: "I couldn't have done it." In spoken German, you might also hear "Ich hätte das nicht gekonnt."
leosmith wrote:Er hat es nicht tun wollen.
The sentence is correct, but would only be used in literature. In spoken German, you're more likely to hear: "Er wollte es nicht tun."
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby leosmith » Thu Aug 03, 2023 8:16 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
leosmith wrote:Ich hätte es nicht tun können.
I would've translated this as: "I couldn't have done it."
Oops, I think he used something like "I was not able to have done it". Why does google always want to use schaffen instead of tun - is it more common?
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Cainntear » Thu Aug 03, 2023 11:45 pm

leosmith wrote:I'm in the 20's in the Intermediate Course now. He keeps coming up with complicated sentences, with nuances that I would rarely use in English, so I'm a bit discouraged that I'm not learning the easier sentences.

I think you're kind of looking at it kind of wrong here. MT is not designed to have you learning sentences at all, but learning how sentences are made up of rules.

I read years ago (in fact, before I even experienced MT) a teacher saying that vocabulary learning was a massive mistake because the natural tendency to all humans is to pay attention to concrete words and neglect grammatical sentence construction -- i.e. to devolve to Tarzan speak. That immediately struck a chord with me because I was still fairly fresh out of school and the whole thing rang true with how my classmates tended to speak.

What he was arguing is that if you teach concrete vocabulary, you're basically presenting an obstacle to the acquisition of correct grammar. The logical conclusion (and I don't know if this was explicitly mentioned in the article or not) is that many teachers end up rationalising away slow grammar acquisition as normal because "grammar's hard" and "everyone finds it difficult"... but grammar's hard specifically because it is the first thing to get dropped as cognitive load increases. The end result is that many teachers end up increasing the vocabulary content continuously as they think they're making it easier for students when in fact they are only serving to make actual mastery ever harder (actually, I think this was really the explicit end point of the article). He argued that vocabulary should never be a teacher's main goal, because it was intrinsically easy, and a good teacher takes stuff that students would find hard and make it easy.

Thinking about it, that article probably set me up to really accept MT when I finally used it for Spanish, because that's exactly what MT does. He's deliberately diverting the cognitive load to grammar by using these complicated sentences so that you're forced to acquire the grammar. Learning the easier sentences in many courses is just a matter of memorising them, which is can be done by turning large chunks of the sentence (or even the entire sentence) into a "word" to be learned by the vocabulary system, bypassing the whole grammatical acquisition bit entirely.
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby leosmith » Fri Aug 04, 2023 3:19 am

Cainntear wrote:
leosmith wrote:I'm in the 20's in the Intermediate Course now. He keeps coming up with complicated sentences, with nuances that I would rarely use in English, so I'm a bit discouraged that I'm not learning the easier sentences.

I think you're kind of looking at it kind of wrong here. MT is not designed to have you learning sentences at all, but learning how sentences are made up of rules.
Actually, I'm complaining that he's teaching lower frequency stuff too early. In addition to the samples I gave, he hasn't even hit gender yet, which is a big deal in German, and I'm almost 3/4s of the way through all his material.
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Cainntear » Fri Aug 04, 2023 5:53 am

leosmith wrote:Actually, I'm complaining that he's teaching lower frequency stuff too early. In addition to the samples I gave, he hasn't even hit gender yet, which is a big deal in German, and I'm almost 3/4s of the way through all his material.

Ah, fair enough -- I see where you're coming from. You've reminded me of something is forgotten actually: the biggest complaint I (and other MT fans) had was his failure to cover the binnoun [goddammit] system.
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby Iversen » Fri Aug 04, 2023 12:48 pm

Cainntear wrote:I read years ago (in fact, before I even experienced MT) a teacher saying that vocabulary learning was a massive mistake because the natural tendency to all humans is to pay attention to concrete words and neglect grammatical sentence construction -- i.e. to devolve to Tarzan speak. That immediately struck a chord with me because I was still fairly fresh out of school and the whole thing rang true with how my classmates tended to speak.
What he was arguing is that if you teach concrete vocabulary, you're basically presenting an obstacle to the acquisition of correct grammar. The logical conclusion (and I don't know if this was explicitly mentioned in the article or not) is that many teachers end up rationalising away slow grammar acquisition as normal because "grammar's hard" and "everyone finds it difficult"... but grammar's hard specifically because it is the first thing to get dropped as cognitive load increases.


Interesting thought, but almost certainly wrong - and if not, then it only applies to people who are satisfied with the lowest level of tarzan speak. Everyone else will soon discover that you need to know a buslead of words not only to survive in any society (starting with the word for "loo"), but also to have a reason to learn grammar. No words, no grammar. And learning all those words is the thing that really takes time.

I have never used MT - my grammar learning is a mixture of tables (which I put on green sheets so that they don't get lost) and halfway graphical systems with small boxes and levers and thingies that illustrate different word categories - that's how I cope with syntax. And in between there is a grey zone where you find things like the rules governing the choice of aspect and mode and cases and ... no, not word order. Word order is primarily a tactile/visual thing, and explanations in words should only consist of simple rules of thumb. Add a ginormous box of readymade formulas (in words, of course) and a lot of native input and a reason to start speaking and writing and thinking yourself, and then you can learn a language. If the things I have read about MT are covering the topic adequately then it's not exactly how he worked, and I'm fairly surely I couldn't have accepted him as a teacher - we would irritated each other too much...
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Re: Michel Thomas German questions

Postby leosmith » Fri Aug 04, 2023 6:54 pm

Ok, another question. Like in English, there are many ways to express "I like X". Unfortunately, the resources I've used all seem to teach different ways of doing this. Naturally, I'd like to use most common way of saying this in colloquial speech. When it comes to liking a verb, MT is obsessed with Es freut mich. For example:
1) Es freut mich dich zu sehen. = It pleases me to see you.
I have used these:
2) Ich sehe dich gern. = I like to see you.
3) Ich mag es dich zu sehen. = I like to see you.
Which, if any, is the most common in colloquial speech?
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