Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

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AndyMeg
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby AndyMeg » Wed Mar 22, 2017 3:45 pm

Call-Me-Captain wrote:Thank you all so much for the answers. I truly appreciate it :)!

AndyMeg wrote:I think that depends on your objectives with the language. What is the one thing you want to do the most in japanese? (Talking to natives? Watch japanese TV or movies? Read mangas or even novels?, etc.)

I know this will sound really far-fetched, but I'd love to learn the language up to a point where I could do all of the above.


I understand. I have the same goal. ;)

Call-Me-Captain wrote:However, my first goal would be to be able to properly be able to read. The second objective would be to understand a conversation between natives. Third objective would be to be able to talk as well, and final one would be to be able to write.
Yes, it may sound like I'm just saying that I want to learn it all because I don't know anything about it, but here's the thing: I may not have a lot of free time per day, but I don't need to be able "to do X in Y months", either. I have time - Years, if needed.
I set myself a schedule that allows me to approximately study for 30 minutes a day. I know that this isn't much, but I do plan on keeping at it. Obviously, I may have some more time to spend on some days, but that means that there'll also be days I won't be able to do those 30 minutes, even though those days should be rare.


If you are in for the long run and as long as it takes, I think you can do it if you are consistent, even with only 30 minutes a day.

Ok. Your first goal is being able to read. What is the kind of reading you want the most? Mangas? Novels? Non-fiction books? Blogs? Other?

Call-Me-Captain wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:So that you can focus only in pronunciation and listening at the beginning, I'd recommend to practice reading text in kana and listening to the corresponding audio. Here is a website you could use for that:

福娘童話集 Hukumusume Fairy Tale Collection

Not every story has a kana transcription. Here are some that do have it:

おいしい おかゆ

にがつ の さくら

カッパ を つろう

おじいさんとおばあさん

テング を ときふせた おとこ

おどる みけねこ

If you want, you can choose one of these options for the transcript, just right below the audio player:

にほんご ←→ にほんご & えいご ←→ えいご

にほんご --> japanese

にほんご & えいご --> japanese and english

えいご --> english

I would recommend to work like this:

1) Listen to the audio and try to follow with the text (reading in your mind). If it goes too fast you could use a finger to follow the text. You can even copy the text to Word and print it so it is easier to follow.
2) When you can follow the text with ease, listen again to the audio without reading.
3) Try to read out loud with the same speed as the audio. Practice as much as necessary until you finally match the speed.
4) Listen to the audio and, without looking at the transcript, try to transcribe it by yourself (pause and go back as many times as necessary). You can try this by hand and also with your keyboard (both train different skills, besides the basic recognition of sounds). When you finish, compare your transcription with the official one and mark with red any differences you find. Try again until there are no differences.

Two characters may give you trouble:
は--> sounds "ha" normally, but "wa" when used as a particle.
へ--> sounds "he" normally, but "e" when used as a particle.


Thank you for the advice and the links! I'll definitely do that.
However, won't it be a problem if I don't really understand basic grammar and vocabulary (I'm not sure if I made that clear in my original post, but I literally don't know anything other than the Kana<->Romaji equivalence.)? Shall I do this practice before practicing vocabulary, or afterwards?


No, I actually think you are at the perfect time to do that kind of practice. The focus of those exercises is on learning to distinguish the sounds of japanese language and associating them with their written counterpart. For now, actual meaning of the words or grammar is not important. It also helps you to get a sense of how japanese flow in sentences. I told you about the は and へ because not knowing grammar could make you confused as why sometimes you hear "e" but it is not written え but へ, or when sometimes you hear "wa" but it is not written わ but は. One I forgot is this:

を--> sounds the same as お, but is written like this when used as a particle.

If you can go through all the four steps for at least 10 stories, I think you'll be ready to move on to the next step in your language journey. Doing this may be really slow at the beginning, but if you keep at it, it'll become easier and faster to do. If you tackle pronunciation and listening first (here I'm not talking about understanding the actual meaning of the words or sentences, just being able to distinguish each sound and associate it with the corresponding kana) you'll have a lot of ground covered that will immensely help you later on (and it'll also prevent you from forming bad habits early on).

Don't worry if you write everything together and can't distinguish when a word ends or begins. That understanding will come later in your studies. For know the most important focus is just on the sounds. Also, If you feel bad about not knowing the meanings at all, you can use the (にほんご & えいご --> japanese and english) option so that you can see the english equivalent of each sentence.

After working with the stories, I think you could read this book:

Japanese the Manga Way: An Illustrated Guide to Grammar and Structure

It gives you a great overview of the japanese language (and it also comes with examples from manga!). I would suggest that you read this book attentively and trying to understand it, but without trying to remember everything. The main focus here should be comprehension and not memorization. The goal with this book would be understanding how japanese language works, even if you don't remember the particulars of it.
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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:34 am

AndyMeg wrote:The focus of those exercises is on learning to distinguish the sounds of japanese language and associating them with their written counterpart. For now, actual meaning of the words or grammar is not important.


LIE or as leosmith puts it Listening Is Everything to a polyglot.
viewtopic.php?f=14&t=5071


You can listen AND understand at the same time. It's much more effective.

For example:

You read
On the 22nd (23rd Japanese time) there was a terror attack in London, the capital city of England.

1.
You listen looking at the text (no audio here, go to coscom http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html)
22日(日本時間 23日)、
イギリスの 首都 ロンドンで テロが ありました。

2.
the same in kana
22にち(にほん じかん 23にち)、
イギリスの しゅと ロンドンで テロが ありました。

Vocabulary
にじゅうににち/にじゅうさんにち 22nd. / 23rd. of the month,
にほん じかん Japan time,
イギリス United Kingdom, Britain,
しゅと capital city,
の particle: 's, of,
ロンドン London, -で place marker; in, at
テロ terrorism, terror attack,
が particle: subject,
ありました there was, past tense -ta, -mas- polite form, ある there is - basic form

3.
You listen again looking at the text.

If the text is still unclear, use a popup dictionary, there are addons for various browsers.

Even a beginner who only knows kana can handle it.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby AndyMeg » Fri Mar 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Kamlari wrote:
AndyMeg wrote:The focus of those exercises is on learning to distinguish the sounds of japanese language and associating them with their written counterpart. For now, actual meaning of the words or grammar is not important.


LIE or as leosmith puts it Listening Is Everything to a polyglot.
http://forum.language-learners.org/view ... =14&t=5071


You can listen AND understand at the same time. It's much more effective.

For example:

You read
On the 22nd (23rd Japanese time) there was a terror attack in London, the capital city of England.

1.
You listen looking at the text (no audio here, go to coscom http://www.coscom.co.jp/j-index.html)
22日(日本時間 23日)、
イギリスの 首都 ロンドンで テロが ありました。

2.
the same in kana
22にち(にほん じかん 23にち)、
イギリスの しゅと ロンドンで テロが ありました。

Vocabulary
にじゅうににち/にじゅうさんにち 22nd. / 23rd. of the month,
にほん じかん Japan time,
イギリス United Kingdom, Britain,
しゅと capital city,
の particle: 's, of,
ロンドン London, -で place marker; in, at
テロ terrorism, terror attack,
が particle: subject,
ありました there was, past tense -ta, -mas- polite form, ある there is - basic form

3.
You listen again looking at the text.

If the text is still unclear, use a popup dictionary, there are addons for various browsers.

Even a beginner who only knows kana can handle it.


I don't think listening AND trying to understand each and every bit will be a good idea at this early stage. Trying to do so now will divide his focus and may put a strain on his language learning process. Learning (and getting used) to pronounce, distinguish and write the japanese sounds is a big enough task itself.

From his profile, it seems he hasn't studied any language with a grammar similar to that of japanese. He'll need sometime in order to adapt himself to the particular way in which japanese grammar works.

I have no doubt that the approach you suggest may become an invaluable strategy later on, but I don't think it would be wise to use it at this very early stage.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Fri Mar 24, 2017 8:11 pm

AndyMeg wrote:I don't think listening AND trying to understand each and every bit will be a good idea at this early stage.


God only knows (if there is one or maybe two).

All I know that I could do it, and I'm just an average person. And when I started learning Japanese, I only knew European languages.

The most important thing is not to get scared.

Of course, as leosmith said above, 30 minutes a day is not enough.

Anyway, 95% of people who begin learning Japanese give up sooner rather than later.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Ani » Fri Mar 24, 2017 10:14 pm

Kamlari wrote:God only knows (if there is one or maybe two).

All I know that I could do it, and I'm just an average person. And when I started learning Japanese, I only knew European languages.

The most important thing is not to get scared.

Of course, as leosmith said above, 30 minutes a day is not enough.

Anyway, 95% of people who begin learning Japanese give up sooner rather than later.


Wow way to be discouraging. 30 minutes day IS going to make progress, and once you can start enjoying a language in your relaxation time, or making productive use of listening during busywork, it gets easier to fit in more time. No one knows what their future will hold. Telling people not to bother starting until they have X block of time available for study is pretty awful.
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Sat Mar 25, 2017 6:44 am

Ani wrote:Wow way to be discouraging. 30 minutes day IS going to make progress, and once you can start enjoying a language in your relaxation time, or making productive use of listening during busywork, it gets easier to fit in more time. No one knows what their future will hold. Telling people not to bother starting until they have X block of time available for study is pretty awful.


You're absolutely right. 30 minutes equals 1800 seconds. It's pretty impressive.

Found some short (traditional) grammar lessons.
Some people prefer to watch and listen.
Here you are:

Japanese Ammo with Misa
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCBSyd8 ... IXfrwkPdbA
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Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby smallwhite » Sat Mar 25, 2017 8:42 am

I find it interesting, that 30-minute bit.

Leosmith has planned "800 hours of listening", "200 hours of conversation lessons on italki", reading and other things, in order to reach B2 in Korean after already knowing "Japanese (~B2), Mandarin (~B2)" and other languages. So that's 800 hours + 200 hours + maybe another 1000 hours? Let's say 2000 hours in total. Divided by 30 minutes and you get 4000 days or 10.96 years. Korean grammar is similar to that of Japanese, and its vocabulary 70% similar to that of Chinese. Would it take longer than 2000 hours if a learner does not aleady know Japanese grammar and Chinese vocabulary, and thus longer than 11 years? 12 years? Or 15?

OP has said twice that about 30 minutes a day is the given, so the number of years is just simple maths. They've also said "I have time - Years, if needed" and the feasibility of their project is not for us to judge.

Now, what I'm interested to know is - with a 30 minutes x 12 years schedule as opposed to the more common 1.5 hours x 4 years schedule, should the learning strategy be different? Would you adjust your advice based on which schedule the person is on? Or do you give the same advice to everyone?
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby blaurebell » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:35 am

smallwhite wrote:Now, what I'm interested to know is - with a 30 minutes x 12 years schedule as opposed to the more common 1.5 hours x 4 years schedule, should the learning strategy be different? Would you adjust your advice based on which schedule the person is on? Or do you give the same advice to everyone?


What an interesting question, smallwhite! I think 30min a day is in general pretty tight to get any meaningful studying done. It takes me about 40min-1h to get through an Assimil lesson with shadowing for example. To drop below 30min I would need to leave out the shadowing and that would mean that I wouldn't really learn the lesson well enough. I would then need to repeat the lesson and in the end I'd spend just as much time on the lesson or even more. The shorter the time, the less efficient it would become, because I can't just switch and be at my best, especially in a new language. I kind of need half an hour warm up just to be in the right frame of mind to tackle an Assimil lesson for example. I would find it extremely difficult to get anything done with just half an hour a day, at least in the beginning. Sure, when I'm further along, half and hour here or there would be just fine, but at the beginning it would make things really inefficient. I myself always start new languages with a 3 month challenge of doing as much as possible 2-8h a day. After those 3 months the basics are usually in place and I'm through those pesky initial bits that need more than 1 or 2h of focussed work. It probably wouldn't quite work with Japanese, too different, but maybe I could try to reach a point where I could start reading with a dictionary. Then half an hour reading for as long as it takes to finish 5000pages wouldn't be too much of a problem. There is always some kind of initial hurdle like that though where I feel like I need at least 1h, ideally 2+h a day to make learning efficient.
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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:08 am

Never studied 30 minutes a day, it would drive me crazy. But I do remember Dr Arguelles saying somewhere that he spent 15 minutes a day on Russian for years.
http://foreignlanguageexpertise.com/
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Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.

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Kamlari
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Re: Learning Japanese: What to do after having learnt the Kana

Postby Kamlari » Sat Mar 25, 2017 10:50 am

You don't need too much time to learn a thing or two.

2000 sentences/words/phrases with line-by-line audio.
http://www.goethe-verlag.com/book2/EN/ENJA/ENJA002.HTM
Somewhat boring but the female voice is nice.


Or if you prefer some kanji and words from time to time, here's a page for you.
2013 GSF Jouyou Kanji by Con Kolivas
http://ck.kolivas.org/Japanese/kanji.html

The version of the Jouyou kanji list in this list contains the year 2010 revised number of characters by the Cultural Council, which comes to a total of 2136 kanji.
GSF refers to the 3 variables used in sorting the primary list, Grade, Stroke and Frequency.
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Frei lebt, wer sterben kann.

J'aime les nuages... les nuages qui passent...
雲は天才である

1. There’s only one rule to rule them all:
There are no Rule(r)s.
2. LISTEN L2, read L1. (Long texts)
3. Pronunciation.
4. Delayed recitation.


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