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Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:45 am
by Xmmm
Tomás wrote:Why not just eliminate the "A"? It's doing no work there.


1. A place to go for sushi
2. The place to go for sushi
3. Place to go for sushi


They are all the same?

1. A language learners' forum
2. The language learners' forum
3. Language learners' forum


So if the goal is to be modest and humble and classy, #1 is the ticket. If the goal is to sell more memberships (or sushi), #2 is preferable. I don't really see a use for #3 ... #3 is not English.

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:26 am
by rdearman
Xmmm wrote:
Tomás wrote:Why not just eliminate the "A"? It's doing no work there.


1. A place to go for sushi
2. The place to go for sushi
3. Place to go for sushi


They are all the same?

1. A language learners' forum
2. The language learners' forum
3. Language learners' forum


So if the goal is to be modest and humble and classy, #1 is the ticket. If the goal is to sell more memberships (or sushi), #2 is preferable. I don't really see a use for #3 ... #3 is not English.


We origianlly went with A because there is an obvious alternative HTLAL, which was the original, so ...

One alternative of course is:
A forum for language learners.

( Or perhaps the name is there in order to see how many so called language enthusiasts will notice ) :twisted: bwahahahahah!

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:31 am
by galaxyrocker
Tomás wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Tomás wrote:But the article "A" refers to the language learner, not the forum, indicating that language learner is singular. In this reading, the apostrophe should precede the s.

In the alternate reading, if "A" refers to the forum, then I don't see a need for the possessive apostrophe at all. In that case, "language learners" would be an adjective.



That's not the way I parsed it. I parsed it as [A [language learner's [forum]]].


I think we agree. I would put the apostrophe either in front of the s, or eliminate it altogether.


I just realized I wrote it wrong in my post! Supposed to be [language learners' [forum]]. I read it as being a forum that belongs to multiple language learners. So the apostrophe needs to stay there.


And the a is definite needed, for me. 'language learners' forum ' without it is ungrammatical to me.

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:26 pm
by Tomás
Today I am thinking that:

A language learners’ forum

A language learner's forum

...are both correct, and that in this instance it doesn't really matter which one you choose. We did have fun debating it though.

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:18 pm
by Serpent
emk originally wrote "learner's" but changed it based on my suggestion 8-) :oops: I think he hadn't realized how common the alternative version is, especially outside the US maybe?

imo language learner's would sound better if our url was language-learner.org ;)

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:18 pm
by Cainntear
OOOoooooh.... interesting.

What we've got here is something that seems natural enough to me, but breaks all the written rules. Get rid of the apostrophe, and suddenly you've got a plural qualifier noun, but that's not common usage yet (toothbrush, not teethbrush). Move the apostrophe to before the S and it changes the meaning.

Does not compute! (But in a good, fun, interesting way.)

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:51 pm
by Speakeasy
My understanding of English punctuation is:

A language learners’ forum
the forum belongs to, or is for the use by, or shows a relationship to several language learners ("learners" is in the plural; the apostrophe is added to the plural and a second "s", indicating the relationship, is not added ... the alternative would be learners’s, which is not standard practice)

A language learner's forum
the forum belongs to, or is for the use by, or shows a relationship to a single language learner ("learner" is in the singular; the apostrophe separates the singular noun from the plural "s", which indicates the relationship)

Accordingly, the current title of the forum is correct as it stands.

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:16 pm
by Serpent
Yeah, to me "a language learner's forum" also sounds less welcoming for a variety of learning methods and strategies. We're not a forum centered around a specific method, unlike ajatt, lingq, duolingo, Benny's forum, or even htlal (in the beginning). The forum isn't owned or managed by a single central figure.
I know that this is just the formal meaning, but still :D

@Cainntear do you mean that the current title breaks some stylistic guidelines?

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:12 am
by Cainntear
Serpent wrote:@Cainntear do you mean that the current title breaks some stylistic guidelines?

I mean the observed rule (that I was aware of) is that a possessive is a determiner, not an adjective, but here we have a noun (forum) qualified by both an article (a) and a possessive (language learners'). I have never seen any written rule that describes this, but to me it still feels grammatical, and now I'm thinking of other examples, and I can see that it's not a problem for me because of "a beginners' course" etc.

Presumably I'm OK with it because it means "for" and I would reject it if it meant "owned by".

Or maybe it's something else entirely. I'm excited because it's forced me to think, and it'll probably take me a year or two before I work out what's going on, so I don't really know what I mean.

Re: A language learners’ forum

Posted: Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:01 am
by luke
One interpretation of the other apostrophe choice, "A language learner's forum": A personal forum, for you, the language learner. Somewhat akin to the "My" sites out there.