A language learners’ forum

Discuss technical problems and features here
User avatar
Xmmm
Orange Belt
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:19 am
Location: США
Languages: English (N), Russian (intermediate), Italian (beginner)
x 365

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Xmmm » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:45 am

Tomás wrote:Why not just eliminate the "A"? It's doing no work there.


1. A place to go for sushi
2. The place to go for sushi
3. Place to go for sushi


They are all the same?

1. A language learners' forum
2. The language learners' forum
3. Language learners' forum


So if the goal is to be modest and humble and classy, #1 is the ticket. If the goal is to sell more memberships (or sushi), #2 is preferable. I don't really see a use for #3 ... #3 is not English.
3 x

User avatar
rdearman
Site Admin
Posts: 2148
Joined: Thu May 14, 2015 4:18 pm
Location: United Kingdom
Languages: English (N)
French (studies), Italian (studies), Mandarin (studies),
Esperanto TAC (Only god knows why), Finnish (only in it for the cookies)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1836
x 4160
Contact:

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby rdearman » Wed Mar 15, 2017 10:26 am

Xmmm wrote:
Tomás wrote:Why not just eliminate the "A"? It's doing no work there.


1. A place to go for sushi
2. The place to go for sushi
3. Place to go for sushi


They are all the same?

1. A language learners' forum
2. The language learners' forum
3. Language learners' forum


So if the goal is to be modest and humble and classy, #1 is the ticket. If the goal is to sell more memberships (or sushi), #2 is preferable. I don't really see a use for #3 ... #3 is not English.


We origianlly went with A because there is an obvious alternative HTLAL, which was the original, so ...

One alternative of course is:
A forum for language learners.

( Or perhaps the name is there in order to see how many so called language enthusiasts will notice ) :twisted: bwahahahahah!
4 x

galaxyrocker
Blue Belt
Posts: 512
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 12:44 am
Languages: English (N), Irish (Teastas Eorpach na Gaeilge B2)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=757
x 875

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby galaxyrocker » Wed Mar 15, 2017 11:31 am

Tomás wrote:
galaxyrocker wrote:
Tomás wrote:But the article "A" refers to the language learner, not the forum, indicating that language learner is singular. In this reading, the apostrophe should precede the s.

In the alternate reading, if "A" refers to the forum, then I don't see a need for the possessive apostrophe at all. In that case, "language learners" would be an adjective.



That's not the way I parsed it. I parsed it as [A [language learner's [forum]]].


I think we agree. I would put the apostrophe either in front of the s, or eliminate it altogether.


I just realized I wrote it wrong in my post! Supposed to be [language learners' [forum]]. I read it as being a forum that belongs to multiple language learners. So the apostrophe needs to stay there.


And the a is definite needed, for me. 'language learners' forum ' without it is ungrammatical to me.
2 x

Tomás
Blue Belt
Posts: 525
Joined: Sat Oct 10, 2015 9:48 pm
Languages: English (N). Currently studying Spanish (intermediate), French (false beginner).
x 572

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Tomás » Wed Mar 15, 2017 4:26 pm

Today I am thinking that:

A language learners’ forum

A language learner's forum

...are both correct, and that in this instance it doesn't really matter which one you choose. We did have fun debating it though.
2 x

Online
User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish+ (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German+, Italian+
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian, Czech; Romanian+, Galician; Danish, Swedish
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Chaucer's English
+ means exploring the dialects/variants
x 2723
Contact:

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Serpent » Wed Mar 15, 2017 5:18 pm

emk originally wrote "learner's" but changed it based on my suggestion 8-) :oops: I think he hadn't realized how common the alternative version is, especially outside the US maybe?

imo language learner's would sound better if our url was language-learner.org ;)
2 x
: 2 / 40 Budva na pjenu od mora: 3rd season (Croatian/Montenegrin)
LyricsTraining now offers Catalan, Turkish and Japanese romaji

Cainntear
Blue Belt
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 1306
Contact:

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Cainntear » Wed Mar 15, 2017 7:18 pm

OOOoooooh.... interesting.

What we've got here is something that seems natural enough to me, but breaks all the written rules. Get rid of the apostrophe, and suddenly you've got a plural qualifier noun, but that's not common usage yet (toothbrush, not teethbrush). Move the apostrophe to before the S and it changes the meaning.

Does not compute! (But in a good, fun, interesting way.)
1 x
A year of Tatoeba recordings: 40 / 365 One donated recording every day in 2017.

Speakeasy
Blue Belt
Posts: 567
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 5:19 pm
Location: Canada (Montréal region)
Languages: English (N), French (C2). Studying: Italian, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Dutch, Polish, and Russian; all with widely varying degrees of application, enthusiasm, and success.
x 1161

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Speakeasy » Wed Mar 15, 2017 8:51 pm

My understanding of English punctuation is:

A language learners’ forum
the forum belongs to, or is for the use by, or shows a relationship to several language learners ("learners" is in the plural; the apostrophe is added to the plural and a second "s", indicating the relationship, is not added ... the alternative would be learners’s, which is not standard practice)

A language learner's forum
the forum belongs to, or is for the use by, or shows a relationship to a single language learner ("learner" is in the singular; the apostrophe separates the singular noun from the plural "s", which indicates the relationship)

Accordingly, the current title of the forum is correct as it stands.
2 x

Online
User avatar
Serpent
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2209
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 10:54 am
Location: Moskova
Languages: heritage
Russian (native); Belarusian, Polish

fluent or close: Finnish+ (certified C1), English; Portuguese, Spanish, German+, Italian+
learning: Croatian+, Ukrainian, Czech; Romanian+, Galician; Danish, Swedish
exploring: Latin, Karelian, Catalan, Dutch, Chaucer's English
+ means exploring the dialects/variants
x 2723
Contact:

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Serpent » Wed Mar 15, 2017 9:16 pm

Yeah, to me "a language learner's forum" also sounds less welcoming for a variety of learning methods and strategies. We're not a forum centered around a specific method, unlike ajatt, lingq, duolingo, Benny's forum, or even htlal (in the beginning). The forum isn't owned or managed by a single central figure.
I know that this is just the formal meaning, but still :D

@Cainntear do you mean that the current title breaks some stylistic guidelines?
0 x
: 2 / 40 Budva na pjenu od mora: 3rd season (Croatian/Montenegrin)
LyricsTraining now offers Catalan, Turkish and Japanese romaji

Cainntear
Blue Belt
Posts: 689
Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
Location: Scotland
Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc
x 1306
Contact:

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby Cainntear » Thu Mar 16, 2017 9:12 am

Serpent wrote:@Cainntear do you mean that the current title breaks some stylistic guidelines?

I mean the observed rule (that I was aware of) is that a possessive is a determiner, not an adjective, but here we have a noun (forum) qualified by both an article (a) and a possessive (language learners'). I have never seen any written rule that describes this, but to me it still feels grammatical, and now I'm thinking of other examples, and I can see that it's not a problem for me because of "a beginners' course" etc.

Presumably I'm OK with it because it means "for" and I would reject it if it meant "owned by".

Or maybe it's something else entirely. I'm excited because it's forced me to think, and it'll probably take me a year or two before I work out what's going on, so I don't really know what I mean.
1 x
A year of Tatoeba recordings: 40 / 365 One donated recording every day in 2017.

User avatar
luke
Yellow Belt
Posts: 65
Joined: Fri Aug 07, 2015 9:09 pm
Languages: English (N). Spanish (intermediate), Esperanto (intermediate), French (intermediate)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=5462
x 97

Re: A language learners’ forum

Postby luke » Thu Mar 16, 2017 10:01 am

One interpretation of the other apostrophe choice, "A language learner's forum": A personal forum, for you, the language learner. Somewhat akin to the "My" sites out there.
0 x
: 24 / 25 Jen Nia Mondo
: 16 / 16 Pasaporto al la Tuta Mondo
: 4680 / 3950 Duolingo
: 15 / 52 Faktoj kaj Fantazioj
: 174 / 1198 Step by Step in Esperanto
: 8 / 30Paŝoj al Plena Posedo


Return to “Technical Support and Feature Requests”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest