The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino
- iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
Good to see you here, Ogrim. It will be easy to check the real thing now. There's significantly less activity. Even with the dramatically lower activity, the page load times are still very slow for me. It won't be that much for you to have to check, sadly. Hopefully, FX gets in touch with our moderation team soon about HTLAL's future. Vamos ver.
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- iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
This month is going to be extremely busy with work and family for me. Still, I am finding time to keep working on Haitian Creole and also am exploring St. Lucian "Kwéyòl". Both languages evolved under similar circumstances and are mutually intelligible to a large extent. It's analogous to the Norwegian-Danish-Swedish situation. I can speak to a St Lucian speaker using HC and be answered in SLC and more or less understand the reply and be understood in return. The look of amazement on their faces is wonderful.
St Lucian Kwéyòl ("patwa" or "patois") is part of Lesser Antilles French Creole, which includes the English-speaking islands of St Lucia, Dominica and Trinidad (though the language is a mere remnant there), Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guyana and even the Venzuelan state of Guria and the Brazilian state of Amapá. The English and French struggled for control of many islands in the Caribbean for centuries and the people were mere pawns. That's why there is a French Creole legacy in several English-speaking islands. My resources for SLC are a bit slim but I do have the New Testament, some folktales, and a dictionary. SIL.org Summer Institute of Linguistics has a lot of resources for minority and endangered languages. They also have some interesting links to how to learn a language with few resources available and software downloads that may be of interest here. Check out the SIL Home Page. Though SIL is a faith based organization, it's not heavy handed with it and they are doing a lot of work to preserve, rebuild and aid learning of minority languages. I was able to get a bunch of St Lucian Creole material I couldn't have found anywhere else and even make bilingual texts. With minority languages, you have to take what you can get. The materials may not be thrilling but the ability to use the language is.
St Lucian Kwéyòl ("patwa" or "patois") is part of Lesser Antilles French Creole, which includes the English-speaking islands of St Lucia, Dominica and Trinidad (though the language is a mere remnant there), Martinique, Guadeloupe, French Guyana and even the Venzuelan state of Guria and the Brazilian state of Amapá. The English and French struggled for control of many islands in the Caribbean for centuries and the people were mere pawns. That's why there is a French Creole legacy in several English-speaking islands. My resources for SLC are a bit slim but I do have the New Testament, some folktales, and a dictionary. SIL.org Summer Institute of Linguistics has a lot of resources for minority and endangered languages. They also have some interesting links to how to learn a language with few resources available and software downloads that may be of interest here. Check out the SIL Home Page. Though SIL is a faith based organization, it's not heavy handed with it and they are doing a lot of work to preserve, rebuild and aid learning of minority languages. I was able to get a bunch of St Lucian Creole material I couldn't have found anywhere else and even make bilingual texts. With minority languages, you have to take what you can get. The materials may not be thrilling but the ability to use the language is.
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- James29
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
Any reason in particular you prefer the creole languages in stead of French? French seems like it would be a useful language on the islands.
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- iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
James29 wrote:Any reason in particular you prefer the creole languages in stead of French? French seems like it would be a useful language on the islands.
Yes, Creole is what I hear, here where I live. The St Lucian, Dominican (Dominica, not the DR) and Haitian communities are small but significantly larger than the odd, random French speaker I run into here. In Miami and even New Orleans I hear more Haitian Creole than French. Information at Miami Tri Rail is in three languages- English, Spanish and Haitian Creole. Despite being an official language of Haiti, only about 5% of the population speak standard French. Guadeloupe. Martinique and St Martin are integral parts of La Belle France as Overseas Departments or French Collectivities in the case of St Martin. I hear more Creole out and about here than I do standard French.
The other reason is, after Spanish, Portuguese and Ladino, I just can't face, right now, yet even more conjugations and tenses combined with the French spellings, pronunciation, etc. I can read a lot of French and understand a surprising amount of the spoken language already. It would be an easy pick up for me, but I am really enjoying Kreyòl right now!
I haven't been to Martinique or Guadeloupe yet, so I can't speak to those two islands. From what I understand Kréyòl is vibrant there.
Check out this short comedy series "Ki Janw Twouvéy - SÉ NOU MENM !"
If you watch it you'll notice that the guy switches to standard French when speaking to his girlfriend. Apparently Creole is not appropriate as the language of love. This is the case in Haiti too, among the elite, or those who want to impress
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- James29
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
Interesting. So, am I correct in my assumption that French would be the third most "useful" language in the Caribbean after English and Spanish? I was figuring it would be the primary language on Guadeloupe, Martinique and St Barts. Maybe I am wrong. That was one of the reasons I have been thinking of studying French.
The Jesus Film Project is dubbing their movie in basically every language in the world (last I knew they had done over 2000) so you might want to see if they did it in St Lucian Kwéyòl yet.
I watched that video and could not really understand anything... other than I could tell when he switched to French.
The Jesus Film Project is dubbing their movie in basically every language in the world (last I knew they had done over 2000) so you might want to see if they did it in St Lucian Kwéyòl yet.
I watched that video and could not really understand anything... other than I could tell when he switched to French.
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- iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
Hmmm, possibly Creole is the fourth most useful language in the Americas after English, Spanish and Portuguese. At least for me, where I am, Creole is more useful. There are roughly 10 million Haitian Creole speakers and around a million Lesser Antilles French Creole speakers, but I wouldn't let that stop me, James. With the language of education and government being French, written media, television and films in Guadeloupe and Martinique, you will hear and speak beaucoup français/anpil franse there. I heard plenty of French on St Martin too. There is a large metropolitan French population on the French islands too. Quebec has about 8 million people with, I think 80-85% being French-speakers. French will indeed give you access to Quebec; and the Caribbean as well. You'll just miss a bit of its soul and color without Creole. Then again, well, I just like to be different and as I said, it's fun
If you are further interested, check out the wikipedia page on Antillean French Creole. I'll have a look at the site you recommended for SLC. I 've already seen the Haitian version. Mèsi anpil.
If you are further interested, check out the wikipedia page on Antillean French Creole. I'll have a look at the site you recommended for SLC. I 've already seen the Haitian version. Mèsi anpil.
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- James29
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
That's useful info. I've researched French in the islands and also in Quebec and those are the places I'd love to visit. It is hard to tell how useful the various languages are in the Caribbean because different resources say so many different things. For example, I may have to go to Curacao and I read so many different things about how useful Spanish is there. Some people say it is an extremely common language while other resources say English and Dutch languages are far and away the most common languages.
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- Expugnator
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
@iguanamon, there is an Assimil Guadeloupean Creole méthode as you may know, so I'd probably go for it instead of any Haitian resources. How much would I be able to understand from Haitian resources then, and also to communicate?
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Corrections welcome for any language.
- iguanamon
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Re: The iguana's tale- PT, ES, HC, LAD
Expugnator wrote:@iguanamon, there is an Assimil Guadeloupean Creole méthode as you may know, so I'd probably go for it instead of any Haitian resources. How much would I be able to understand from Haitian resources then, and also to communicate?
Do you have audio with that course, too, Expug? The answer is, quite a lot- but after you have a good solid base in the grammar and are up to an intermediate level. Of course, native speakers get way more than I do only having a little above basic fluency, but I do get quite a lot. A lot more than when I was learning Portuguese after Spanish.
Here's a video on Daily Motion of Wyclef Jean speaking to a Guadeloupe Interviewer speaking in HC and being answered in Lesser Antilles French Creole with subtitles in French.
With 10 million vs 1 million speakers, there are far more readily available, and even free, learning resources for Haitian Creole vs Lesser Antilles French Creole. I know you already have the Guadeloupe Assimil, but I would advise going for Haitian first- more books, more TV, more audio and more chance to meet Haitians in Brazil, unless you want to go all the way up to Amapá or Ouaiapoque! Then, afterwards, I would use the Assimil to quickly get the differences between the two. To see some of the differences, compare this free pdf Ann Pale Potigè with your Gualdeloupe Assimil early lessons. I also just found a grammar manual in Portuguese from the Brazilian Army Manual de preparo de idiomas creole. Thanks, Expug! I would've never have found this without your question. I always thought the Brazilian military would have had something because of their large presence in the UN peacekeeping force there, MINUSTAH.
With you having already learned a Creole language to a high level, and speaking French, I think you would catch on to it very quickly, regardless of which variety you study. Being understood is not that difficult, understanding the more complex responses takes more exposure and even study. I don't know if there are many Haitian immigrants in BH, but there are many in Sampa.
I just ordered Annou pale kréyòl. Cours de Creole Antillais 23 leçons and Grammaire du Creole Martiniquais en 50 Leçons because I want to become more familiar with LAFC. Of course, it goes without saying that I could help you out a lot with resources
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- zenmonkey
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