The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri Dec 30, 2016 3:07 am

Westworld looks quite interesting indeed. And I'd like to yet again express my incredulity with regards to to Brazilian 'roadblocks' for those wanting to gain access to their cultural offerings via various media. Cray-ola inderdaad
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Ogrim » Mon Jan 02, 2017 2:42 pm

iguanamon wrote:Lesser Antilles French Creole/ Kwéyòl Sint Lisi/St Lucian Creole
This joke came to me via twitter from Kwéyòl Sint Lisi
An pasajè té abò an taksi lè i touché zépòl chofè-a pou mandé'y an kwèsyon. Chofè-a té soté tèlman, i fè yon kwi èk mantjé twouvé kò'y adan an aksidan. I tounen dèyè èk di pasajè-a, "Pa janmen fè sa ankò."
Pasajè-a wéponn, "Padon misyé. Si mwen té sav ou té kay soté kon sa lè mwen touché zépòl ou mwen pa té kay janmen fè'y."
"Sé pa vwéman fòt ou," chofè-a di. "Jòdi-a sé pwèmyé jou ng'a kondwi an taksi. Avan sa, mwen té ka kondwi an kòbiya pou ventsenk lanné."

A passenger was on board a taxi when he touched the driver's shoulder to ask him a question. The driver was so startled, he screamed and almost got into an accident. He turned around and told the passenger, " Don't ever do that again."
The passenger replied, "I'm sorry, sir. If I had known it would startle you so much I would never touch you on your shoulder."
"It's really not your fault," the driver said. "Today is my first day driving a taxi. Before that I used to drive a hearse for 25 years.



Feliz año, iguanamon. I am quoting this joke because what I found really funny is that I first came across this very same joke in Russian in Assimil! Clearly a universal joke that works just as well in Creole as in Russian :) .

I look forwards to following the iguana's tale in 2017 as well.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jan 05, 2017 5:41 pm

Thanks for stopping by, PM and Ogrim. Bòn Ane (HC) / Anyada Buena (LAD) / Feliz Ano Novo (PT) / Feliz Año Nuevo (ES) to everyone.

Ogrim: ¡Qué casualidad!, tener el mismo chiste en el russo y el criollo francés de Santa Lucia. Es probable que venga de una traducción inglesa pero, nunca se sabe. Espero leer más de tu bitácora este año, como siempre.

PM: Yeah, the geo-restrictions seem to be the bane of all language-learners... which turns us to "alternative means" as our only viable solution. It forces us to become good at computer skills though, as a side benefit, through necessity. Looking forward to seeing where (and how) you take French this year.

Ladino/Djudeo Espanyol
I finished a book in Rashi script Livro de pasatyempo . This is a book of anecdotes and moral tales published in Yerushalayim/Jerusalem, Yisrael/Israel in the early 20th Century. Some were translated from French. Speaking of which, I've moved on to a new book by Ponson du Terail Ombre de la maskara (about Henry IV). I'm only a few pages into it so it's hard to tell if it's going to be a decent read. I have low expectations. Still it's good to keep reading in Rashi. I worked too hard for this skill to let it go. I'm giving it the Expug method treatment by only spending 15 minutes a day on it... unless it gets good.

Exodus (in Rashi script) has gotten to the boring bits after Kapitulo 23 where God tells Moses how to build and make things for worship... complete with dimensions in "kovdos/kubits". Might come in handy if I ever decide to sojourn in a desert with my tribe or come across some stone tablets somewhere... you never know, though I'll need a lot of gold and fine linen. I've been keeping up with the news in Ladino on the IBA World Service (Kol Israel) and reading the Ladinokomunita forum.

Haitian Creole
Continuing to listen and read. I'm reading Exodus in parallel with (just after) reading in Ladino. Listening to the Atravè Labib podcasts. Also enjoying music- like Panama Mwen Tonbe (My Panama hat fell). This is a traditional Haitian folk song and this version by Lakou Mizik is done in a traditional style which shares a lot in common with the traditional music here in the VI. We hear a lot of this type of music this time of year. The Christmas season is a big deal here and won't come to a close until our Three Kings Day Carnival Parade on Saturday, January 7.


Spanish
Continues as normal but I did buy some new books about the language that I'm looking forward to reading Cocodrilos en el diccionario y Una lengua muy larga
arpa editores- Una lengua muy larga wrote:¿De dónde diablos sale la Ñ? ¿Hablaba Lope de Vega japonés? ¿‘Yerno’ viene de ‘infierno’ ¿Qué tienen en común el maestro Yoda y el Marqués de Santillana? ¿Sabías que en la Edad Media se abreviaba mucho + q hoy?
Una lengua muy larga es una colección de relatos sobre el pasado y el presente del español, una lengua tan larga en el tiempo como ancha en el espacio y que hoy hablan más de 500 millones de personas en el mundo.
Este libro no se dirige a todas ellas, sino a los lectores que, como gusta decir Lola Pons, poseen «sensibilidad lingüística»: personas que de vez en cuando se sonríen al comprobar que su lengua no es exactamente igual a la de sus padres, ni tampoco la misma que la de sus hijos, o se preguntan de dónde vendrá tal palabra o tal otra, o escuchan con curiosidad el acento distinto en el habla de otras personas, o se dejan sorprender por cualquier expresión distinta y recién descubierta…

I continue to listen, watch and speak... every day.

Portuguese
I finished Westworld and will probably re-watch it at some point. It has a very intricate and complex plot and is extremely well written, produced and acted. I'm sure it's available in Spanish dub as well but I don't know about other languages. The Portuguese dub is very well done. Mandrake has three more episodes to go in Season 2 and then two post series "movies".
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jan 19, 2017 8:18 pm

It's been a couple of weeks since my last log post. I decided to change my profile to reflect my language abilities in terms of CEFR. Since we are becoming ever more farther removed in time from HTLAL, the old ratings are no longer relevant to new members. I haven't taken any formal language exams, so my ratings are self-ratings, some based on online DLI tests and the others- Ladino and Haitian Creole have no tests available. I moved Haitian Creole up to C1 because I believe that reflects what I can do with the language. I moved Lesser Antilles French Creole up to B2 (basic fluency) because that's where I am with the language in reading, listening and speaking- based on St Lucian Kwéyòl. Guadeloupe, Martinique, Dominica, Trinidad and Brazilian Lanc-Patuá have differences with SLC. Some of these differences are more significant than others- especially Guadeloupe and Martinique.

Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol
I recently found out about this report on Twitter: The Future of the Past: Judeo-Spanish in the Twenty-First Century by Bension Varon. It is a sobering report on the current status of the Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol language and how it got there. This article/report makes for interesting reading for anyone who is interested in Djudeo-espanyol. I will quote some excerpts:
Bension Varon wrote:...I approach the subject as a native Ladino speaker from Istanbul (where growing up I spoke also Turkish, French, and some Hebrew and Greek). Emigrating from Turkey to the United States in 1960, I have separated from Judeo-Spanish culture and Ladino speaking communities for decades. Nonetheless, my Sephardic heritage and relationship to Ladino continue to define me, as it does so many among the far-flung Sephardic diaspora of the late 20th century. My investment in the future health and well-being of the language runs deep, as it signifies the survival of a complex heritage of which I am a part, albeit small. My awareness of the challenges to that future is also profound, given the trend lines I have tried to face with bracing honesty.
In 2010, the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization (UNESCO) classified Ladino as a “severely endangered language” in its Atlas of the World’s Languages in Danger of Disappearing. The Atlas, then in its 3d edition, was part of a project launched in 1993 for the purpose of raising awareness about languages deemed endangered and the need to safeguard the world’s linguistic diversity. “Severely endangered” was defined as “spoken by grandparents and older generations; while the parents’ generation may understand it, they do not speak it to their children or among themselves.” The definition describes Ladino’s current state well. In comparison, Yiddish was classified as merely “endangered.”...

The author outlines some of the reasons for the current state of decline of the language, the biggest being the Holocaust of World War II which killed thousands of Sephardim and sent the remainder into a widely dispersed diaspora. The language and culture haven't recovered from this blow. The author goes on to further delineate the historical and current state of affairs with Ladino. He continues with his conclusions on how to best "preserve" the language. Why "preservation" and not "revival"?:
Bension Varon wrote:...Whatever happens to their language, there will always be Sephardim—Jews tracing their origins to Spain five centuries ago. How about the language? Will the past it represents extend into the future? The ongoing efforts to assure that it does are commendable, even groundbreaking. Yet the concern—the near panic—about the language’s survival is justified and requires both individual and group efforts. A realistic objective is Ladino’s preservation rather than its revival. While today’s Sephardim have every right and many reasons to be proud of their heritage, they need to approach the challenge with clear eyes and an open heart.

I agree that it isn't realistic to revive the language. That would require too many parameters that can't be supplied in the world as it is today. The world and conditions that developed Ladino and sustained it for 500 years are gone. Preservation seems to be the best bet.

The author's prescriptions and conclusions for preserving the language are summarized as follows:
Bension Varon wrote:...Be realistic. The strong attachment that Sephardim have to their ancestral language, whether they speak it or not, is an asset but it can also be a liability, insofar as it blurs judgment. To believe, as I do, that the death of native Ladino speakers is unlikely to ever be offset by new learners of the language does not represent taking sides. What the current programs of instruction can achieve is limited.
Carry out a census or a quantitative study of Ladino-speakers worldwide, covering their exposure to and knowledge of the language. Numbers are essential to diagnosis. The task is not easy and can only be accomplished locally (not by a central authority) and, most likely, through a sample. ...
Continue and expand the programs and courses on Ladino—they can only help—with an important proviso: do periodic follow-ups of the students to learn about the use to which the fruits of the courses are being put. To my knowledge, this has not been done systematically to date; yet it is essential for estimating the long-term impact of the courses.
Continue and expand the programs of research on Ladino, with some changes of emphasis. The programs are largely in the hands of historians and linguists—or linguistic historians—when we need to interest increasingly sociologists in them. They cover the evolution of the language in depth and from multiple linguistic angles, which is admirable, but with scant attention to the factors behind the limited use of the language today. They are also too narrowly focused in some respects. An area insufficiently examined is the comparison of the linguistic experiences of the Arabs (or Moors) and the Jews who were both expelled from Spain a few years apart from each other.

I found his last prescription to be interesting and relevant:
Bension Varon wrote:Work closely—combine goals and forces-—with Spanish. There is no doubt that the use of Ladino has been in long-term decline. At the same time, interest in learning Spanish among Sephardim has been on the rise, starting before the enactment of the law granting them Spanish citizenship, based on special conditions, including a specified degree of proficiency in modern Spanish. Interest in learning Spanish has been met with a negative, emotional reaction by some Sephardim who see it as an unwelcome preference for Spanish over their ancestral Ladino. Those who have taken the Spanish route report that their exposure to Spanish kindled their interest in Ladino … that knowing some Spanish was better than knowing little or no Ladino. Testing of the Spanish language proficiency of applicants for Spanish citizenship is to take place at the local branches of the Cervantes Institute. In this instance at least, the goals of Sephardim and Spanish authorities converge rather than conflict. I learned recently that, in the past, Karen Sharhon, founder and editor of El Amaneser, taught Ladino at the Cervantes Institute in Istanbul for a while. So, combining forces with the Institute in promoting either Spanish or Ladino is not without precedent. Besides, Sephardim spoke Spanish (various regional variations of it) before their language evolved into Ladino. Spanish is, after all, the mother of Ladino and should not be viewed as its enemy.

I, myself, am not Sephardic. I'm not even Jewish. My interest in the language was spurred by general interest in the culture and people and with the knowledge that I could more fully explore this by leveraging my knowledge of both Spanish and Portuguese to learn this severely endangered language. I have said before that I don't think I could have learned Ladino/Djudeo-espanyol without my base in Spanish and Portuguese. I believe this will be true and necessary for future learners as well. The vast majority of the last native-speakers of the language are elderly and within two to three decades they will be gone.

My prescription for preservation of the language comes from my perspective as a self-learner. I hope to present this to Professor Naar at the University of Washington Sephardic Studies Department.
1) More learning materials based on native resources to be made freely available, such as
a) Subtitled in Ladino Youtube videos of native speakers speaking on various topics of both cultural and universal relevance.
b) Audio recordings of both public domain and even copyrighted books (where permission can be secured).
c) Parallel texts made of Rashi (and Solitreo) and Roman script to help learners to learn Rashi (and Solitreo/Ladino cursive). I would be happy to help with this. If an audio recording could be made to go along with the text... even better!
2) Subtitle lyrics for more Ladino songs on Youtube
3) More modern translations of secular literature. I have read El Princhipiko/The Little Prince and Las Aventuras de Alisia En El Paiz de Las Maraviyas/Alice's Adventures in Wonderland and some lesser known secular literature in Rashi script. Yiddish has The Hobbit in translation and even a couple of Dr. Seuss children's books. I would love to see the Pulitzer Prize winning graphic novel novel, Maus: A Survivor's Tale by Art Spiegelman , translated into Ladino, for example along with something like The Hobbit or the Harry Potter novels. This can help keep modern learners' interest and incentive while learning the language.
4) There are a few ladino theater plays extant and some have been performed. More should be performed, recorded, subtitled and uploaded to the web.
5) Oral history recordings and interviews with the remaining native-speakers- critically important.
6) Ladino "summer camps". There are several of these available in Yiddish. This could be done with Ladino too.

I believe if some of these suggestions were adopted and implemented it would help future Ladino-learners to more easily learn the language. Much audio and video material already exists but lacks the subtitles or transcripts. There are several books and short stories, but without audio. Avner Peres' translation of Alice could be transcribed into Rashi and also needs an audio version, for example. These are the little things, that probably weren't thought about at production, that can really help a learner when setting out to learn a language- as we all know. While I understand the concern about Spanish among purists, I fully support using Spanish as a bridge to Ladino. This has been my experience and I couldn't have done it without it. The video below is a youtube video of a play in Ladino provided by la Autoridad Nasionala del Ladino i su Kultura. Something like this with a transcript and/or subtitles would be a huge help to learners. If anyone else has any other ideas about how to preserve the language, please feel free to comment.

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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby kujichagulia » Mon Jan 23, 2017 11:39 am

Oi iguanamon! O seu estudo de Ladino é uma coisa formidável! I am very impressed. I hope that one day there will be an endangered language that strikes my fancy as much as Ladino has yours.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:19 pm

Valeu, Kuji, mas os meus estudos no idioma ladino não são tão notáveis. Pois é, não houve muitas dificuldades porque já falei espanhol e português quando começava aprender ladino, mas as palavras turcas e hebraicas me deram alguns problemas. Gosto muito de ler no alfabeto hebraico Rashi. Me da muito prazer fazer isso depois de muito trabalho.

Spanish
Spanish is a language that I almost take for granted. I hardly notice when I'm listening to or watching something in the language. I get a lot of my US news in the language from the Associated Press en Español, both online and on my phone with their app. I have CNN en Español playing on the TV right now in the background- an interview with Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa. I also read El Nuevo Herald from Miami and El Nuveo Día from nearby Puerto Rico online and their app. I generally let twitter be my curator for everything except the AP. On Saturdays, the AP publishes a list of the 10 bestselling books in Spanish in the US, some countries in LA and Spain.

I had a bit of time-wasting fun with this quiz from BBC Mundo ¿cuánto sabes de los idiomas que se hablan en el mundo?. My score was 9 out of 10. I may post it in the Spanish Group.

I saw recently in the Cuban Communist Party newspaper, Granma, an article about Haitian Culture Week- Raíces haitianas en Cuba, this week in Havana. Haiti and Cuba are very close in distance and there has been a long tradition of Cubans migrating to pre-revolutionary Cuba to work in the cane fields. Speaking of Granma, they have an interesting blog about the Spanish language called El español nuestro.

The Cervantes Institute has a lending library Biblioteca Electrónica. It costs 10 Euros to join for a year and gives access to thousands of books, audiobooks and video in Spanish. For Spanish-speakers/learners this is a great resource worth looking into for cheap/legal access to a lot of Spanish language media. They also have a Club virtual de lectura where you can read and interact with others. The link will explain it in more detail. It definitely looks interesting.
Instituto Cervantes wrote:La biblioteca electrónica es un conjunto de recursos y servicios en línea del Instituto Cervantes.
A través de la biblioteca electrónica se pueden prestar y leer libros digitales, permite escuchar música y audiolibros, ofrece acceso a recursos electrónicos (bases de datos, diccionarios, enciclopedias, directorios…) e invita a la participación en clubes virtuales de lectura.
Para hacer uso de los recursos y servicios de la biblioteca electrónica, hay que hacerse socio a través de la plataforma de comercio electrónico del Instituto Cervantes, la tarifa es de 10 € al año.
Desde cualquier lugar, a cualquier hora, con cualquier dispositivo...

Haitian Creole
I continue to read, listen, write and sometimes speak, not as often as I would like but I take what I can get. I've been working with a Bible study podcast and parallel readings of the chapters. I also have been watching Haitian news and music videos. Speaking of Cuba and Haiti, the Creole Choir of Cuba- "Desandann" (descendants). The singers are Cubans of Haitian descent. According to what I have read, some 300,000 Cubans can speak Kreyòl, making it the second most spoken language in Cuba. This video is from a recent appearance (tiny desk concert) Desandann made to the studios of US National Public Radio (NPR)- beautiful singing.


Portuguese
It seems like nearly everyone learning Spanish is watching El Ministerio del Tiempo. There's a new Portuguese version from Portugal- Ministério do Tempo which is obviously centered on Portugal and its history. It's setup and time traveling is very similar to the Spanish version and is available on RTP Play. After finishing the HBO series Mandrake, for the second time now, I've started reading Mandrake: A Bíblia e a Bengala por Rubem Fonseca, I'm about a quarter of the way into it now but this one isn't quite as good as his other novels.
Last edited by iguanamon on Sat Dec 02, 2017 5:48 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:00 pm

iguanamon wrote:

I had a bit of time-wasting fun with this quiz from BBC Mundo ¿cuánto sabes de los idiomas que se hablan en el mundo?. My score was 9 out of 10. I may post it in the Spanish Group.



¡muy bien, casi perfecto! obtuve una 7, pero de vez en cuando tenía suerte porque no lo sabía pero por casualidad elegí la repuesta correcta.
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby Systematiker » Thu Jan 26, 2017 9:15 pm

I watched the trailer you linked - "very similar" seems to be an understatement!! :lol:

Totally not tempted to watch one and see how much I can follow, no, not me...
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby BOLIO » Thu Jan 26, 2017 10:17 pm

I-Mon,

I hope you have been well. Just wanted to stop by and say hello. Thanks for all you do on this site.

Oh by the way, the Portuguese version of El Ministerio del Tiempo might be enough to make a person learn Portuguese. :D
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Re: The iguana's tale- Portuguese, Spanish, Haitian Creole and Ladino

Postby kujichagulia » Fri Jan 27, 2017 2:09 am

iguanamon wrote:It seems like nearly everyone learning Spanish is watching El Ministerio del Tiempo. There's a new Portuguese version from Portugal- Ministério do Tempo which is obviously centered on Portugal and its history. It's setup and time traveling is very similar to the Spanish version and is available on RTP Play.

Yeah, I saw them advertising Ministério do Tempo at RTP Play, but I didn't realize it's originally a Spanish series. I'm sure it's way above my level, and my priority is Japanese and getting through DLI Portuguese Basic, but I might try watching an episode or two if I have time.
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