Bakunin wrote:What I don't understand is how a learner is supposed to get a good feeling for tones after hearing a few rounds of ga-ga-ga-ga-ga with all five tones, and then some listen-and-repeat. This seems to be a fundamentally flawed approach to me. For me, it takes a massive amount of listening to allow my brain to hone in on the underlying tonal shapes.
Admittedly, I needed tones broken down at that simple level to show me what tonal differences even mean or else I’m not sure my brain would even know to look for tones outside of the ways I use tone in English. But, once I figured out that there was a difference, these simple contrasting syllables were not enough for me to internalize tones, or apply them to a different context. I needed more. I’m far from being apt, but at this point in my studies, I’m comfortable with my ability to identify tones in slowly spoken sentences. The tone pairs that most often trick me up, even in context and in a sentence, are mid & low, and high & rising.
I do, however, credit these simple and repeating tone breakdowns using the syllable ma — specifically ma — in being to identify and reproduce tones. The reason for ma specifically is that at some point within the first month of my studies, after listening to a round of ma in all 5 tones yet again, I suddenly related each tone to a different way I may call out to my mom in different circumstances. Then, using this ‘mom-ma’ model, I could quickly repeat and identify tones in various other words. With time, I got the knack for each tone, and just skip over the ‘mom-ma’ step. I’m very thankful that ma is one of the ubiquitous models for Thai tones, otherwise I may still not hear anything. (Also, fortunately, when I call out to my mom, I most often use the word ma.)
My biggest hurdle is deriving a word’s meaning from tones. Even if I am able to identify a word’s tone in a slowly spoken sentence the majority of the time, I am still a far way off from intuitively extracting meaning from tones. It is an overly analytical process where I actually think, “mai with low-tone equals new.” I get by more easily when words have different grammatical roles, as I use context to get meaning, not the tone. My brain hasn’t linked tone with meaning, yet. For example, when two words could be easily swapped, let’s say in the sentences ‘I like dogs’ and ‘I like horses’, I’m at a loss unless I stop to dissect the sentence in my head.
What I think would be helpful for me is to have a collection of minimal pair sentences where only the tone of one word differs. Using sentences would be key, not isolated words. Using the example of horse and dog, if I had 50 pairs of sentences that only differed by swapping those two words, I think my brain could start to extract meaning from tone. Repeat this drill with dozens of word pairs (even better, with different voices), add large doses of comprehensible input, and I’d surely be on the road to assimilating tones and their meaning.
Or maybe I don’t need all that and I just have to believe that overtime and with greater input that I’ll eventually get there. In another thread, Carmody mentioned that faith plays a necessary role for him in his language studies. When I read that, I recognized that for assimilating Thai tones faith is a key ingredient for me — faith that I’ll get there someday if I keep trying. My dream is to be able to differentiate Thai words without being conscience of the tone, just as I am about sounds in English.
That said, I'm sure there are better ways to get to the point where I am now and maybe focusing on comprehensible input would have been a more holistic approach and I wouldn't be having the problem I have now with extracting meaning from tones. But at the beginning, Thai was exceptionally foreign to me. And, tones were the scariest thing about Thai, so that is what I focused on.
Actually, Bakunin, I am curious how your competencies with tones developed using an input-loaded learning style. Were you able to assimilate meaning and tone simultaneously? (Was Thai your first tonal language?)
lingua wrote:I also have noticed that on the one cooking show I watch where the hostess talks fast that I barely hear any tones out of her at all.
Yes, tones in fast speech are terrible for me, even if I can hear all the other sounds. When listening to languages when I’m out and about, I use an app on my phone that has the capability of slowing down speech without altering pitch. I had never messed with the speed settings (I use this particular app because it breaks audio down into smaller chunks that I can repeat). But one day during a walk when listening to Thai, I guess I accidentally changed these settings, (slowing down the audio) when putting the phone into my pocket. Because, Wow! the tones were so clear and obvious. After this discovery, I’ve played around a bit with changing the speed. First, lowering the speed to where the tones jump out at me, then incrementally increasing the speed back to normal, and again, Wow! by the time I get back to normal, I could hear most tones as I could at the slower speed. It’s almost like having my own teacher, repeating things slowly for me when I don’t understand, but then ramping things back up after. Since this initial discovery, I haven’t played much with speed settings and Thai, but I have plans to explore more at some point. Currently, I’m using this technique for helping me with hearing Japanese pitch accent, and it’s doing wonders.
