Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 18, 2017 7:22 am

rlnv wrote:I hope you get the marks you're estimating, and good luck on the oral tomorrow! As a person that drinks a lot of water, I can completely relate to your story, as a matter of fact something similar happened to me at the dentist today. :)

When you get a chance, can you give a bit more detail on the writing section? Topic, time allotted, and whatnot.


Thanks rlnv!

Yeah I hope i'm actually totally wrong and do a lot better than I think, but getting the marks as per my estimations wouldn't be so bad. Thanks for the 'good luck'.

On that topic, my interpretation of 'good luck' with relation to such things as exams, imo, doesn't literally mean that it's all down to luck. I think it's a figure of speech which happens to make use of the word 'luck', which more or less means, "do you best, i hope you do really well"

As for the writing-
After the initial 30 minutes allocated for the listening component, you are given the remaining 2 hours to complete both the reading and the written components. The teacher advised that we use one hour for each, but it is up to our own discretion in terms of how to divide that time.

I aimed for 1 hr and 1 hr, but ended up using more time to go back over my listening section answers (there's nothing stopping you from doing so, evidently you can use your time however you please, but of course you cannot hear the audio again). Therefore I was probably left with 1hr 50 in total for the reading and writing sections (oh and that rediculous toilet break cut a few minutes more out of my overall time). Subsequently I estimate I used roughly 1 hr of that time for the reading section (2 articles with a bunch of questions, i think about 12 from memory for each), then used ~50 minutes for the writing (I felt a little more confident with that).

Thus, ideally you are meant to have an hour for the writing. I didn't, but that's fine, I spent more time on things I was suffering to find answers for (listening component, and the reading just took longer to get it all done despite working quickly, for me that is).

So the written component was a question somewhere along the lines of:

You're a resident in a small French town and live between a kindergarten and a retirement home. You write a letter to the mayor suggesting to him/her that he allow the residents of the retirement home to read stories to the children of the kindergarten. In your letter you are to outline your plan for the reading to the mayor, telling him/her why it would be beneficial.
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In some ways I've wondered since writing my response earlier today during the exam, that maybe I misinterpreted the question and instead of trying to convince the mayor of all the benefits i should've spoken more about the plan itself. Perhaps I did construct my writing incorrectly, perhaps I didn't. Time will tell. What will be will be now.

For anyone considering sitting the B2 I highly recommend preparatory materials and using a tutor. For me personally, and more generally, listening skills are neglected more often than not, and I'd advise particular attention to this component if you suspect you could improve. For me it's the one section in which one could potentially do worse than what your ability should demonstrate, since extracting sometimes subtle nuanced ideas or notions from a piece of audio, to me goes beyond just listening and understanding. You must listen, comprehend words, comprehend the overall meaning, follow the nuances, possibly retain dates, numbers, names figures and other things and then reproduce it all in multiple choice and short written answers. Your listening ability really has to be on point! I thought I'd be ok, but as explained I didn't do very well I suspect.

From a tutor's perspective, I was told that the writing section often poses unexpected difficulties for students. They misinterpret the question/topic, don't know how to construct a particular writing piece relevant to the intended audience (i.e. correct register and correct forms of address and how to end the letter for example), and underestimate their writing abilities. Practise here with one excellent tutor helped for me, but I think for the most part I was ok with this section.
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Edit: Before I forget I may as well mention what the 2 articles in the reading section were about. The first was about 'jardins partagés' springing up around Paris, which discussed some variations on the theme, some more legal than others, the benefits, trends, organisations and so on.

The second article was one journalist's take on the use of private cars and how he felt they should be in due time a thing a relic of the past due to pollution, poor use of space, sedentry lifestyles (ie encourage bikes, walking also) etc. He advocated big improvements to public transport, more pedestrian and cylce paths linking to public transport routes and eliminating cars wherever realistically possible depending on each region.
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Another edit:
I want to write about it while it's a little fresh. The first (longer) listening component was about video games in companies for training (eg simulating dangerous environments), skill improvement and perhaps eventually spotting certain skills among employees that may be good in future management. Dry topic for me.

The 2nd audio clip I'm honestly struggling to remember it now. Ah yes! It was about gaining access to the knowledge that natives have in the amazon basin who have been able to heal themselves of illnesses without access to western medecine. The idea was to gain access to this to help a wider population before this knowledge is lost (deforestation, displaced natives).
Last edited by PeterMollenburg on Thu May 18, 2017 8:03 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 18, 2017 7:43 am

LeCon wrote:Weirdly i find i struggle even in English to recount information.

I saw an English exam where they reeled off some story and then afterwards you were expected to say stuff like 'How old is Jim's dad' and by that point i'd forgotten. It's very hard to focus in the right places in order to answer their questions. Giving an overall gist of the story would be much more natural i feel.

'What's happening? Give details of people, places and any other facts you think are relevant.' would be better than trying to recount specific information.


Indeed, I couldn't agree more. However, I am very biased, if I worked this skill and came out with a suspected 25/25 I probably wouldn't necessarily agree or state that it's unnatural. I'd be more likely to say- put in the hard yards man! Still, that's not the situation, and indeed I do agree. Take myself out of the context as much as possible and yet again I do feel it's unnatural really. In the end I can't change it, I just hope I pass! LeCon, I would also struggle to recount such information in English.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 19, 2017 4:30 am

L'oral:
Okay I've now completed the last component of the exam.

I was incredibly nervous in the lead up. I had not done any exam specific preparation with my tutors on the actual B2 oral component of the exam, until this morning. I used the same tutor for my last 4 sessions of exam prep. I readily booked her in after my initial session with her as she was head and shoulders above the rest (I thought the other were very good, until I discovered her- absolutely excellent). If anyone is going to do a French DELF or DALF exam I cannot recommend her enough- just ask me and I'll forward her contact details if you are interested. She's native bilingual of French and Spanish, so if you're considering a Spanish exam she may also be very valuable.

Okay so this morning before the exam we did a mock oral exam (over Skype) and she gave me some last minute feedback. Although I do not recommend last minute exam prep it was highly valuable. She had already sent me an outline of how to prepare for the exam about a week back (she really went out of her way I feel, she seemed passionate for languages in general and invested in my success)- oh and she's a translator (didn't ask her of what but i'm sure i will in due time)....

So on driving into the exam centre I didn't listen to French as usual, I kept it silent, except for my French road directions on occasion from my phone. I went over the framework I had written out this morning, which summarised my tutor's document she had sent me- went over this in my head, glancing at it occasionally where safe, if needed. Then I revised it again at the exam centre before getting out of my car and awaiting the instructor inside. No rushed toilet dashes this time, as the overall time was 50min.

In the first minute I pulled two pieces of paper at random (out of around 10 or 15), which had 2 subjects on them. Out of these 2, I was told to decide on one. Thus I was afforded that minute to read quickly over and decide.
The choices were:
1. an article discussing how the French were watching more of more movies on various types of screens at home (computers, ipad, TV's etc) as well as being able to stream, and that the cinema would possibly suffer from it. I can't remember the angle now as I didn't choose this topic, but I think from memory the discussion that one would draw from this article is probably one in which you can defend going to the cinema and that the new technologies will not destroy the movie-going 'industry'. Not my thing so much.

2. The one I chose was about video games and how an amercian study had showed significant advantages to senior citizens in utilising video games for learning to increase their mental capacities - such as improved reaction times, improved peripheral vision, improved capacity to do various tasks.

So I had 30 minutes to write a plan or write something that would guide my speech. I was a little frantic and nervous and my plan, although copied out from memory from the one I had from my tutor and had summarised myself, ended up a little messy. Okay 30 minutes up (well 29 min post the initial decision = 30 total).

I went into another room where I exchanged some brief chit chat with a second teacher. The two then came in in a minute or two and advised me to start when ready. Oh and they did inform me I would have 20 minutes, the first 7 of which I would need to basically tell them all about the article. The remaining 13 minutes would be them asking me various questions on the article/topic and my thoughts in relation to their questions.

I was to cite where the article was from (source), date, author, and title. Not all that information was available is it had no date, was found online and had no author listed. Thus I cited what I could and continued with discussing the theme, the author's opinion and tone of the article.

Then I threw in my opinions, drew on experience and offered my counter-arguments and arguments against the biased article.

I felt i was heading for 7 minutes a little too fast and was fast running out of things I had written down. In the beginning I also found I was reading off my notes far too much. But it got better, I diverged into my experience and opinions and relied less on my notes (I really had little left anyway) and just prior to the 7 minutes, looking at my watch, used my tutor's phrase "Je suis à votre disposition si vous avez des questions sur mon argumention", which she said was almost vital.

Nicely timed, they moved to questioning me. Here, I felt almost 100% comfortable. I had plenty of fuel in my back pocket to fire back (part of the reason I chose this topic), as the article was far too biased, and sitting in front of a screen for perhaps long periods, has some negative outcomes, thus, I found their questions relatively easy to respond to, and felt I was speaking in my best French in terms of pronunciation at a good pace. I stumbled a tiny tiny bit here and there, but nothing necessarily indicative of a French learner, as I can do that in English too on occasion.

I did feel I overused a couple of words and found myself avoiding them toward the end. I also felt I could've thrown in a few more stylistic phrases, but all in all I think i'm the most confident about the speaking component than any other parts of the exam. I'll be a little cocky just for good measure and predict a score of 23 out of 25. It left me feeling, that if it wasn't for my listening, bring on C1! Still work to do.

Summary of predicted scores by Monsieur le PM:

Listening: 8/25
Reading: 22/25
Writing: 20/25
Speaking: 23/25
TOTAL: 73/100

I won't know for some time, likely 1 to 2 months how I went. All I can say is, I hope I did enough to pass the listening component as I don't want to have to sit it again.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Snow » Fri May 19, 2017 6:59 am

Congratulations! You did it! You took the exam! Why is your predicted listening score so low though? Anyhoo, aren't you glad that you decided to conquer your fear, and finally took the exam? Now that you have an idea where your strong and weak points lie, you have plenty of time to work on them. Whatever your future learning plans may be, good luck!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 19, 2017 7:39 am

Snow wrote:Congratulations! You did it! You took the exam! Why is your predicted listening score so low though? Anyhoo, aren't you glad that you decided to conquer your fear, and finally took the exam? Now that you have an idea where your strong and weak points lie, you have plenty of time to work on them. Whatever your future learning plans may be, good luck!


Thank you kindly Snow :)

Yep, sure glad I did, just really hoping I pass the listening component, everything else was overcome without major difficulty. For the listening I was just not that great- i found it very tricky to focus on the questions during the audio playback (what information i needed to find within the audio), take notes during the playback, comprehend the audio and then retain any information. In short I was scattered, nervous and as it seems it's my weakest skill, just not that great at listening. Fingers crossed!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby zenmonkey » Fri May 19, 2017 8:40 am

Congrats!!

And from the sound of it you prepared more and your test seems to have been a bit more strenuous than the telc B2 for German. So there too, consider that this B2 might be placing you in solid C1 land. Bravo.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Carmody » Fri May 19, 2017 10:53 am

Peter,

You are one very courageous dude! You did it! I had no idea it was such a rigorous test.

You also have no idea how grateful I am to you for sharing your journey in general and the B2 test prep and test in particular. I truly believe you are courageous.

Over the past week, I thought of you repeatedly as "one of us" who was in the trenches getting ready to go "over the top' as in WWI and now you have done it! In one sense for me, it doesn't matter with the score, but rather that you had the intestinal fortitude to hang in there and go for it. You can always go again, and now you know how it works it will probably be 50% easier.

So, thanks for sharing and showing the Way with such openness and vulnerability. I am always learning from you and cheering you on.

;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby iguanamon » Fri May 19, 2017 11:25 am

PM, you faced your fear and did it anyway. Good job! I'm really happy for you.

Listening is often the hardest component for self-learners because it isn't as easy to do as reading or speaking. Listening to audio only means no visual clues and no chance to redirect the speaker, basically- no control. In my experience on the forum, I've noticed that because of this difficulty, it often becomes self-reinforcing- i.e.: reading is easier relative to listening, therefore, reading tends to get the most attention and listening tends to fall by the wayside as a result.

In your case, once you decide to make listening a priority it will sort itself out quickly, of that I have no doubt. I'm sure you did well on the test overall, PM! You definitely put in the hard work.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 19, 2017 12:20 pm

zenmonkey wrote:Congrats!!

And from the sound of it you prepared more and your test seems to have been a bit more strenuous than the telc B2 for German. So there too, consider that this B2 might be placing you in solid C1 land. Bravo.


Thanks zenmonkey... maybe I painted a tougher picture than I was meant to? :? Okay, I didn't exaggerate from my angle, but maybe I did? Anyway, here's wishing us both well on our respective results! I hope we do as well as each other, and that it's better than we both expect! Thanks for your kind words zenmonkey :)

Carmody wrote:Peter,

You are one very courageous dude! You did it! I had no idea it was such a rigorous test.

You also have no idea how grateful I am to you for sharing your journey in general and the B2 test prep and test in particular. I truly believe you are courageous.

Over the past week, I thought of you repeatedly as "one of us" who was in the trenches getting ready to go "over the top' as in WWI and now you have done it! In one sense for me, it doesn't matter with the score, but rather that you had the intestinal fortitude to hang in there and go for it. You can always go again, and now you know how it works it will probably be 50% easier.

So, thanks for sharing and showing the Way with such openness and vulnerability. I am always learning from you and cheering you on.

;)


I'm glad you can make use of my at times a little rediculous log (reflective of me without a doubt). In this case, with regards to the B2, at least for once I could actually divulge a good amount of useful feedback for others, perhaps? In your case Carmody, it does indeed seem that I instill something in you. Perhaps it's belief that the path is achievable- that of advancing one's foreign language capabilities.

There are plenty of inspiring people on this forum. People who've helped me in particular include (i feel really ridiculous now, like this is a Hollywood awards ceremony, but I'd just like to give a little credit) emk with his ever logical and highly informative advice in general on the forum- he really provides a lot to a broad audience here, iguanamon equally provides a lot for all here and for me specifically with his realistic and down to earth honest comments on what is achievable and what needs to be done or focused on to realistically get the job done that's helped me considerably, not forgetting his multi-track approach, Cavesa- now I am in awe of her, I really don't know how she does it!! excellent advise as per usual from Cavesa with a lot of detail, particularly on exams which again the whole forum can make use of, smallwhite - awesome help and insights right when I need them and the ONE who really pushed at exactly the right time for me to take this exam, whatiftheblog, some powerful advice at times, Serpent, always ready for a good debate and offering clear insights drawing on her experiences, tarvos- a wealth of experience worth listening to.

It seems sad in a way to write this short list of names, as I don't want to exclude the massive amount of other people on this forum who have been incredibly supportive. No this isn't the end of my blog, nor the end of the road (whatever that means), i just started writing a pretty soppy bit of of Hollywood-esque thank you speech and kept going with it. Ah PM you really would make a good PM if it wasn't for 1984. And although I'm really tempted to delete this for fear of excluding others who've also made a real difference, and because it's a pretty soppy at the same time, I won't, because, I umm... can't find the delete key and don't know how to use computers- I'm currently dictating to my dog.

So please know that everyone else whose taken part in my journey and support has really really really helped me just as much as these super-knowledgable people above. So thank you Carmody for your awesome support (edit: and the extremely kind post above) as well as a part of an incredible lot of passionate people.

Damn I really need to start buying myself trophies, anyone would think I'm the first person to ever make it to B2 (provided I pass!!!) in French! Please everyone, feel free to mock me btw. My ego needs to be brought back to earth! Maybe failing would be a good thing? :o

iguanamon wrote:PM, you faced your fear and did it anyway. Good job! I'm really happy for you.

Listening is often the hardest component for self-learners because it isn't as easy to do as reading or speaking. Listening to audio only means no visual clues and no chance to redirect the speaker, basically- no control. In my experience on the forum, I've noticed that because of this difficulty, it often becomes self-reinforcing- i.e.: reading is easier relative to listening, therefore, reading tends to get the most attention and listening tends to fall by the wayside as a result.

In your case, once you decide to make listening a priority it will sort itself out quickly, of that I have no doubt. I'm sure you did well on the test overall, PM! You definitely put in the hard work.


Thanks iguanamon, if you see above I truly appreciate your particular experience and how you've shared that on the forum and with me right when i've asked for it or needed it. Thanks dude ;)

Now, back to Pimsleur French 1.... ;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby zenmonkey » Fri May 19, 2017 12:55 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
zenmonkey wrote:Congrats!!

And from the sound of it you prepared more and your test seems to have been a bit more strenuous than the telc B2 for German. So there too, consider that this B2 might be placing you in solid C1 land. Bravo.


Thanks zenmonkey... maybe I painted a tougher picture than I was meant to? :? Okay, I didn't exaggerate from my angle, but maybe I did? Anyway, here's wishing us both well on our respective results! I hope we do as well as each other, and that it's better than we both expect! Thanks for your kind words zenmonkey :)


No, don't undersell yourself. It was factually a tougher exam - a 7 minute talk on a topic? I only had 2 minutes. That's just one example. You used a tutor, I wish I had (particularly for the writing prep.)

I suspected that the telc test is structured a little easier than other exams. And your description seems to indicate you got it down (I'm going to bet you get a better score than you assume).

Are you thinking of doing a C1 test? I think that's going to be my final objective but I expect it is 6-12 months before I can reach those levels (if I pass the B2...). And this time I want to take the Goethe C1 - so I expect it is a significant step up. It's good to see someone's method and thinking along the exam path - so also thanks for all that you shared here.
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