Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Apr 09, 2017 5:40 am

smallwhite wrote:You won't listen anyway but I will say it anyway.

On the contrary, I've been stubborn for too long, it's time to definitely listen, and believe me I am.

smallwhite wrote:For the next 6 weeks, I suggest you sit down and consolidate what you already know - organise your knowledge and practise demonstrating them - before you use new material to acquire new knowledge.

You've already had 6 years of exposure and learning, and 6 further weeks of them won't make much difference (52:1). 6 further weeks of initial exposure to new material won't be of much use in the exam anyway. And no single piece of knowledge is critical to your exam; not 1 piece out of every 52 pieces anyway. Whereas, if you can't fully utilise and demonstrate your previous 6 years of work, you can ruin those 6 years in 6 weeks.


You may or may not believe it, but it's definitely something that's crossed my mind too (that consolidation is very important), for the same reasons- that years have passed and i've been slogging away, usually intensively, and now it's time to consolidate, again in agreement with you- I can't cram enough new knowledge in in the short time I have left to make a difference- but it took your message for that concept to sink in- it took your logic, so yet again smallwhite, thank you. I know i've just basically repeated what you've said and claimed I've come up with it in part. I think I had the inclinations and you really came out and said it to make me realise. Cheers ;)

smallwhite wrote:Here are some concrete examples of what I would do. Many people do languages better than I do but at least I did well at school overall :roll:
* I would re-listen to old audio clips played at higher and higher speed (instead of listening to new podcasts).

I can and will do this with RFI Journal en français facile - I will use older and newer clips. I won't ignore new content, as the content in the exam won't be old content, but you are right for consolidation, it is a good idea, and with the podcast app I can speed the audio up. Also I'm finding I have increasingly more time for podcasts potentially coming up, thus I couldn't handle only listening to content i've already heard... but I will indeed absolutely employ these methods.

smallwhite wrote:* I would practise reading fast. In fact, I shouldn't have used the conditional, because that's what I actually did for my exam. It didn't take long to get used to reading faster, and it really boosted my confidence in the exam, and of course actually gave me more time to answer the questions.

Excellent idea. I will employ this into my extensive reading.

smallwhite wrote:* I would think about what topics are likely to appear in the reading exam, and re-read articles that are among those topics. (Instead of finding new articles to read, and reading things that won't appear in the exam such as articles about mafia, prostitution, controversial topics like same-sex marriage, politics, religion) (Also, people here read a lot of fiction as exam prep but I don't think they have fiction or stories in B1-C2 exams?)

Yes, true indeed. I shall ditch Harry Potter (for about the 3rd time!- I've never read it in English, which i'm adding as a side note due to rdearman's thread on disliking HP... see rdearman, we could be friends? I say as I secretly intend to read it ;) )

smallwhite wrote:* I would go through all my flashcards (instead of adding new words).

Goed idee ook! Umm I mean bonne idée aussi. Which language am I studying again?

smallwhite wrote:And when I (re-)listen to audio or (re-)read articles, I would simulate the exam environment - if exam audio clips are usually 45 seconds long, then I would now, at home, listen to audio for 45 seconds at a time, paying full attention and trying to remember key information or whatever the exam usually expects you to do. Listening to 20-second clips would be insufficient exam prep, same with listening with 20-second attention spans, while listening to 15-minute podcasts is unnecessary for this exam and not the best use of the next few weeks.

Actually, the B2 exam prep book I was using this morning is set up exactly that way. You have to go through the activities exactly in the manner like the exam- amount of times you get to hear an audio clip, amount of time to respond etc. I'll indeed follow this strategy. Once again sound advice smallwhite.

smallwhite wrote:In short, I would not aim to learn in these 6 weeks. I would aim to consolidate my existing knowledge. And all decision-making would be based on this aim.


Yep, excellent. I'm thinking of relistening to Assimil lessons particularly from Using French during some listening time too, as I'm sure there's a lot of vocab and grammatical concepts in there that are semi-forgotten- another good way to consolidate. I've no intentions of going over and over other old course material, but listening to Using French in spare moments (maybe while kayaking, during which I'm not currently listening to anything) could also be employed.

On the consolidating using old material, I certainly will employ this strategy, but I want to couple it with extensive listening to new material as well- not necessarily to mine for new vocab which could prove to be a golden nugget during the exam (b/c it won't), but to really get my ears and eyes (reading too) hopefully moving up a level. I say this as people like Cavesa, and whatiftheblog, iguanamon, serpent etc, can't speak highly enough for plunging oneself into native content and trusting that one will adapt. I've not done enough of this and doing more of it will prepare me to be 'ready to pounce' and not shocked when the exam comes.

whatiftheblog has once again inspired me. His words in the following post particulary regarding his friend have has inspired me:

whatiftheblog wrote:Alright, I apologize if this ends up being a wall of text, but hopefully it'll be a useful wall for you :) I should warn you that I'm one of the forum dwellers whose mantra is always "ditch the courses and go native", so there will be a lot of that.

1. You should add RFI Journal en Français Facile to your schedule. However...

2. With the schedule you've described, I think you're going to hit B2 fairly quickly. At which point - go native. It doesn't have to be 100% native at that point, but make unsubtitled, unscripted listening - news, radio, short vlogs on topics you're interested in - and routine (i.e. not literary criticism or hermeneutics) reading - "lower" fiction, blogs, news sites - a part of your daily schedule. Not simplified versions or learners' editions, actual native-for-natives content. At first you might be at 60% comprehension, but if you do it long enough, that will skyrocket.

3. Since I took many twists and turns to get to where I am in French, I won't use myself as an example of the above, but I do have a good friend who started learning French about 5-6 months ago? He knows a little bit of Spanish and has the benefit of a native francophone girlfriend, although they speak English 99% of the time, but I can't say he's a linguistic wunderkind. I decided to use him as a lab rat (with his permission, of course) to test my Native Early And Very Often (NEAVO!) hypothesis, and about 3-4 months into a Duolingo + a bit of Assimil regimen, he added France24 to the daily routine. A few weeks later, I sent him a short Quotidien clip, which he said he got the gist of, but mostly thanks to the subtitles they sometimes show on screen. A few weeks later, with him still doing Duolingo + Assimil + France24 + random basic conversations with his girlfriend, I sent him another one. Five hours later I get the following string of messages:

(20:30) I've been watching Quotidien for about 5 hours
(20:31) It's now to the point where I'm finding it funny AND UNDERSTANDING WHY IT'S FUNNY
(20:31) Are there any French sitcoms on Netflix?


He's really progressed in a very short time, and I know this because I can now send him screenshots of tweets about the election, and he'll actually understand both the meaning and why it's funny/ridiculous/whatever. While A2 -> B1 is obviously easier than B1 -> C1 and up, that's no reason to neglect NEAVO :D or to exclusively use material that's standardized and often dumbed down.

4. If I can leave you with one piece of advice, it would be to never, ever force yourself to use material you're bored by. Challenging and boring are different things, so make sure you know where that distinction lies for you, as it's very individual, but if you're bored by your Anki deck or course book or whatever, toss it. Don't fall into the trap of thinking that if lots of other people are doing it, you have to as well - unless it's something you need for your degree, you're not forced to use any specific resource(s). We're lucky in that there are millions of free and/or very cheap things out there for us in French - Youtube is going to become your best friend! - and so long as you have internet access, everything is at your fingertips. There are plenty of free French news apps, lots of interesting French vloggers, tons of documentaries on Youtube, at least half a dozen free streaming TV channels (more with a VPN), content is everywhere. Do a Youtube search for whatever you like (make sure it's in French, of course) + "vlog" and start there - you can search for vlogs by students doing the same degree, for instance. If you find yourself losing interest, drop it and find something else that keeps your attention.

I frequently get the sense that the, uh, malaise that can sometimes be found on this forum, with posters getting frustrated with themselves and taking breaks, is largely due to boredom with the resources they're using. Fly free and you'll notice serious progress in no time. Good luck!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby smallwhite » Sun Apr 09, 2017 3:09 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
smallwhite wrote:You won't listen anyway but I will say it anyway.

On the contrary, I've been stubborn for too long, it's time to definitely listen, and believe me I am.

Good to hear :P I wasn't complaining, btw, although I sounded like I was. I don't find you stubborn. I think you just don't like or don't feel comfortable deviating from original plans, and I think I understand that uneasy feeling.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Apr 10, 2017 8:36 pm

I published my first exam prep writing piece on Lang8 this morning. It was meant to be 160-180 words. I did 204. So losing marks there already, but all this will aid in exam prep (knowing how much i'm writing). I thought I'd post it here too. I also used the dictionary this time on occasion. I need to back off on that to an eventual zero so that I'm simulating the exam. Still, it was my first so we'll let me off, won't we? :x (i've highlighted those words I looked up, if they are underlined, it means I would not have been able to write the term had I not looked it up- no chance of suddenly remembering it or stumbling upon the correct wording, if not underlined, I recognised them once I looked them up and possibly could've remembered them or guessed (i'm a perfectionist, couldn't help using the dictionary to check), or already knew the term but was unsure of the context).
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C'est un tournant, un événement politique, à mon avis. C'est-à-dire que ce n'est pas un événement que les hommes politiques décrirent comme une situation médicale très importante, que nous sommes responsables d'agir pour le bon de toute la population.

En ce qui me concerne, les hommes politiques font le programme secret des multinationales de vendre plus de leurs produits chimiques et même faire nous croire, qu'en les injectant dans nos corps, que ça va nous rendre plus forts, plus résistants contre les maladies.

Cependant, comment peut-on faire confiance en ces multinationales qui adorent l'argent et contre qui plusieurs actions en justice ont été perdues ? Même ces compagnies tuent des gens tous les jours et faire réduire au silence des remèdes naturels efficaces contre le cancer. Pour qui travaille les hommes politiques et d'où vient leurs appointements ?
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:51 am

After recently declaring I was going to sit the B2 next month, I have some serious doubts. Some are probably well-founded, others just a matter of being a little scared.

The detail-
Since making the declaration I've really struggled to get into a regular routine. I should be 'solidfying' old/recent knowledge of all types, but I can't get my shit together. Much of it is probably my fault, some not (my routine is tough-ish with kids, work etc, and just recently when wanting to get on track it seems someone is tightening the pressure screws).

My knowledge is not that broad in terms of skills. I've read little (okay a few books, spread out over extensive time periods), watched a moderate amount of TV- never binged watched, and spoken only occasionally (often many months apart between conversations, and very likely the conversations rarely become detailed or challenging because it's the same old rubbish- meaning I don't speak regularly enough to get into some serious stuff). My skills could be limited. If anything I would be pushing it a little imo to cross the line in certain skills with relation to the exam.

Very very little exam prep done. B2 demands certain skills and specific preparation. I've not really gotten underway properly yet.

Whether or not these things are all my own doing (they are really, as having my routine disturbed by work/family life in the last few weeks is a drop in the ocean of my French journey.), I am considering amiming for November instead.

I mean as per B2 descriptions, I'm not really convinced i'm a solid B2, and maybe i should go back to my original exam prep idea (which I had a whole thread for) many months back and re-boot from here on- injecting plenty of the activities I should be doing (including speaking) and feel less pressured.

Edit:
I am now 90% or more convinced I ought to drop this exam prep idea for May and head for November. I've placed myself under too much pressure I think or done something weird, I cannot get focused and don't like the idea that when I do finally become focused (even in the next hour) I'd like more time to prepare. I lost the plot almost completely, and I'd like to take the time, as a perfectionist, to perfect my French in the coming 6-7months. Best not to panic, compose myself, take stock of what I need to do, and apply myself for the coming months through to November.

It's not been a lost, I've realised some things. In fact just reading the thread on fossolized mistakes I've concluded that I've not necessarily been doing things wrong having done a truck load of courses (it has been good), but I also need to push harder to stop this stalemate intermediate plateau. I'm aiming for November I believe. Sorry guys, you were hoping I know.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby rdearman » Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:07 pm

I think you should do May. A goal without a deadline is a wish! If you put it off until November, you'll put November off until May... etc, etc. Unless it is a question of money, I think you should take the test. Because even if you fail it, you'll know what the test is like, what they ask, etc. It will give you focus and data needed to try again in November.

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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Snow » Sat Apr 15, 2017 2:37 pm

Hi, PM!

Aww I was rooting for you to take the B2 exam soon! But I totally understand the pressure that you are feeling now. Sometimes, when I feel overwhelmed by language learning, I take a few steps back to (1) reduce the pressure/stress, and (2) to regroup and reassess my goals.

However, let me tell you about my DELE B2 experience in 2011. I was 6 years into learning Spanish at that time, all university classes. I could read slightly long texts and write mediocre~ essays but my listening and speaking skills really sucked (and they still do :? ). I don't know what came over me to decide to take the DELE. It was a few months after graduation, my only exposure to Spanish back then was the Spanish emails at work. No reading of long texts, no listening, no speaking, just short emails. I barely did any exam prep except for printing a sample paper a week before the exam date.

I was really nervous during the exam because I had no recent practice with the language and the other people in the room were students in IC who were chatting in Spanish, cramming until the last moment. I was like, I couldn't even do that! :oops: A friend who took up to C2 classes in IC also took the same exam. I thought back then, "Ugh I'm done. I wasted money only to be slapped in the face with a failing mark." I wanted to go home before the exam even started lol. But I still went through it because money. When the oral part was about to start, I was panicking because my speaking skills were that of a young Spanish child. I bet a child would have been more fluent than I was. But I still went through it because it was the last part already and I wanted to go home asap. On the way home, I cried in the train for being a failure lol.

When the results went out, I was shocked. I passed. Like how? Did my papers get switched with someone else's? :lol: Here are my scores:
Reading - 18.07/20
Writing - 14/15
Grammar and Vocab - 17.73/20
Listening - 7.3/15
Speaking - 24.2/30
This was during the old DELE format. I don't know how much the exam has changed since then. Anyway, according to my C2 friend who also took the B2 exam, he failed and so did his other friend who was taking B2~ classes in IC. Also, one of the IC students chatting before the exam, eventually became my office mate and said he also failed the DELE. They took/were taking expensive classes yet they still failed while a mediocre student aka me passed. :shock:

So what can you take away from my blabbering?
I. You can do it! I've read your log and know that you've been studying for a long time and you have quite good resources that you use. You read, listen, and sometimes speak in French! That is more than enough! Not sure if you write often, but don't worry too much about that. Even with minimal preparation, I think you can make it. However, I'm not saying don't prepare at all/ don't just wing it like I did. It's better to be prepared so...

II. Come up with a simple study plan. As smallwhite posted, you don't really need to learn more stuff, you know? At one point during your whole French learning journey, you've probably come across all the necessary words that you might need for the exam. And if you forget one or two, doesn't matter, you can always learn the meaning through context.

What you need to work on is increase reading speed and comprehension, improve listening comprehension, improve speaking and writing. Also, you must familiarize yourself with the exam itself! The parts, the instructions, how long you have to answer per section.

Here's what I suggest:
***Work on Reussir and the other DELF book that you have. Just the two are enough, I think.

The purpose of these books is to familiarize yourself with the exam. Do all the sections and exercises! Also time yourself while doing them.

I believe that you won't need other main resources than those prep books. Those books will train your reading and listening. If you want to read and listen more (for fun or whatever), go ahead use other resources, but prioritize the prep books.

You might need to work on speaking and writing separately. If your prep books contain speaking and writing prompts, do those and search for similar prompts on the internet. You can just talk to yourself or with a language partner or a tutor. For writing, you may post on lang-8 or have someone check your writings. But the more important tip is to research (I don't know the terms so I'll just give examples, okay?)
1. Firstly, secondly, lastly
2. Connectors (furthermore, moreover, however, but, as soon as)

You can weave those into your speech and written exam. Better to know them beforehand than to be scratching your head during the exam if you can't remember how to express these in French!

III. If you really can't take the exam in May but still taking the November exam, same advice still stands -work on the prep books. You can, of course, use other resources, you can even go back to your regular routine and just do the prep books once a week or on weekends. But still, do the prep books. I can't stress this enough.

Anyway, I hope you'd reconsider the May exam because as rdearman said, the Nov exam might get pushed again to a later and later and later date. I know I'm like that hehe. Plus, there's no guarantee that from now until November, you will have learned everything necessary for B2. And the stress you're feeling now will come up again when it's time to prepare for Nov. But it's up to you. Looking forward to how this will turn out.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Xmmm » Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:28 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:I'd like more time to prepare. I lost the plot almost completely, and I'd like to take the time, as a perfectionist, to perfect my French in the coming 6-7months.


See, this is where your perfectionism stops working in your favor and starts killing you.

Take the test in May. You can always retake it again and again if needed.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Ani » Sat Apr 15, 2017 6:31 pm

I have to agree with everyone :( What if something comes up in November? Even something as simple as having the flu on the test date. You've said you don't want to skip exams and jump right to the C1 so, would that mean you'd have to wait until next May to take the B2? That seems like a big delay when your life plans are based on having this certification in hand. It is true - you might not pass. Who among us has never been under prepared for a test and not done well? Probably smallwhite :lol: But the rest of us have all been there. It is ok to take it and not pass but I think there is a really good chance you will.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby rlnv » Sat Apr 15, 2017 8:45 pm

I'm going to go a bit against the grain. If you feel you are not ready, don't pressure yourself to make the May date. It's not worth the stress.

But before making a decision, have you considered booking a few hours with a qualified DELF/DELE tutor? Someone that specializes in preparation and has the credentials, should be able to properly assess if you can become ready for May or if you should target November. That person should also be able to help you develop a tailored path for preparing and succeeding. There will be much less stress on exam day if you are truly prepared and confident of your abilities. If you go this route, trust the plan and execute it, very little deviation from it.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby smallwhite » Sun Apr 16, 2017 2:07 am

Ani wrote:Who among us has never been under prepared for a test and not done well? Probably smallwhite :lol:

That's not fair. It takes Speakeasy 14 weeks to assemble and then ride his bike, too. I bet he practises walking to the test centre more times than I do. And brings more erasers.
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