Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Expugnator » Mon Mar 27, 2017 11:35 pm

I appreciate you remembering my name, PM, though what you describe isn't (or no longer is) the way things work for me. When I started my full-time language journey, I had B2 ish English (very low listening skills, though) and I could read in French. I started 4 languages at a low level and I regret that. I also started extensive reading and listening too early and I regret that, too. So we can put good 4 years spent on learning how to learn. Now I learn much faster each new language, I only have 1 opaque language at once and having limited progress is something relative to think or say. At earlier stages, all I can take of an opaque language are 30 minutes a day, so it would be pointless for me to devote 8 hours a day to an A1 language in the hope of learning faster. Languages take time to sink in. They do, eventually, as long as you do intensive input (which doesn't exclude extensive input for consolidation) . I'm all with blaurebell on this.

I still struggle with Russian which I started almost five years ago, this is an externality of my lack of experience, but I progressed much more quickly in Estonian and Modern Greek. Just thought I had to say something as to not be depicted as the slow learning path. ;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:06 am

Expugnator wrote:I appreciate you remembering my name, PM, though what you describe isn't (or no longer is) the way things work for me. When I started my full-time language journey, I had B2 ish English (very low listening skills, though) and I could read in French. I started 4 languages at a low level and I regret that. I also started extensive reading and listening too early and I regret that, too. So we can put good 4 years spent on learning how to learn. Now I learn much faster each new language, I only have 1 opaque language at once and having limited progress is something relative to think or say. At earlier stages, all I can take of an opaque language are 30 minutes a day, so it would be pointless for me to devote 8 hours a day to an A1 language in the hope of learning faster. Languages take time to sink in. They do, eventually, as long as you do intensive input (which doesn't exclude extensive input for consolidation) . I'm all with blaurebell on this.

I still struggle with Russian which I started almost five years ago, this is an externality of my lack of experience, but I progressed much more quickly in Estonian and Modern Greek. Just thought I had to say something as to not be depicted as the slow learning path. ;)


Excellent. I appreciate the clarification indeed. Thanks Expugnator. What I can take home personally from your experience, is to have a balance between extensive and intensive methods. Thanks again Expug :) Hope your day is going well!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Mar 28, 2017 12:44 am

BOLIO wrote:Do the courses make you happy? If so, continue the self-challenge of courses you have. If not...don't.

I appreciate your log and contributions to the board. If you started a "Going Native" thread discussing your adventures with native materials then I would read it too.

As far as the other stuff....control what you can control and let go of the rest.

All the best,

BOLIO


Yep all sounds very logical and I agree. Study using that which I want to use/motivates me. And don't stress about the world- change what I can. Great advice!


Xmmm wrote:PeterMollenburg,

There's really only one solution to your problems.

I knew a guy who was very frustrated with his life and decided (somewhat whimsically, I think) that the way out of the box he was trapped in was to learn Mandarin. This was the early 1990s, and he packed up (he was young and single) and went to a no-name language school in a small town in Northern China where no one spoke English and he was the only westerner. He stayed there for two years. This was pre-internet so he was pretty much forced to use Mandarin all day long. Needless to say, he became fluent.

You are trapped in "analysis paralysis" right now, trying to tweak everything in optimal fashion so you can go to France and blah blah blah. Meantime time passes, you aren't happy with the progress you're making, you aren't happy with the "use native materials" advice -- probably because deep down inside you feel frustrated that you are trying to use these native materials in the middle of Australia, surrounded by an ocean of English.

The thing for you to do ... is to pick up and move. If you can't get to France, you can't afford to turn up your nose at Quebec, Martinique, Belgium, Switzerland. Maybe you can turn up your nose at Gabon. But you need to get yourself to a French-speaking zone. ASAP. And if you think it's going to be disruptive to your family -- do you think it's ever going to be less disruptive to your family? Changes only get more disruptive over time. Wait till your kids grow up and marry Australians and you have grandkids and see how easy it is to move to the other side of the world.

Sell the house, pack the bags, buy one way tickets to Quebec, move to the heart of the French speaking zone ... and then work on your five year plan to get to France. My opinion.


I really appreciate your advice Xmmm, but....

Although this would make a lot of sense at certain points of certain peoples lives, it doesn't make sense for me right now.

Financially, while I can't complain, I've been in a rather stagnant position for some years, but the light is now visible (potentially) at the end of the tunnel, which will see the future endeavours more likely to succeed. Dropping everything and relocating right now would be premature. I should've done that when I was much younger. But I haven't and I don't regret it necessarily, I've just needed to adapt, and I've certainly become frustrated along the way.

Interestingly, I remember thinking while in Europe for almost a year in 2011, that at one point, I could probably learn more efficiently at home in Australia and be in a better financial position. That has proved to be correct, but the financial situation as mentioned won't improve just yet. I have to take some careful steps with my family and ensure things fall/are pushed into place correctly.

Whether things turn out as planned (financially and language learning wise), we have a plan that in around 2 years time we are going no matter what. We will make it happen. By then if we are financially stuck we are more likely to free ourselves up by selling something than we are now, since right now there are other things that need to run their course too, before we can up and move. We are not mentally, financially and otherwise prepared right now. Not only would it be financial suicide (and potentially marital suicide), I have no means of working in my field of experience without the necessary language exams passed, the paperwork in place etc and all that takes time- time that has been accounted for in the coming ~2 years, could be slightly more. The aim is Belgium for various reasons. But plans can change. We will have to adapt, but leaving now is not a good idea. Still I can see where you're coming from, and I do appreciate the suggestion.

rdearman wrote:I'm not going to give you any advice, but just some sympathy and to tell you I was feeling the same at the start of the year. Too many goals, not enough time, not enough progress, etc, etc. So, I basically parked all my goals, and actually I've made more progress than I did before I stopped working toward my goals. I think the problem was I kept telling myself "I have to study French; I must read 50 pages a day; I must work on a book; I must excel at my job;". You name a type of pressure, and I was putting myself under it. The pressure to "work harder" was backfiring because I wanted to do less and less.

It all sort of came to a head in January and I thought feck it, I give up, I'm not doing any of this. If you read my logs you'll see I parked Mandarin, Finnish, lots of other personal goals which I didn't bother to list in my log. The result has been in the last 30-40 days I've watched over 52 hours of TV/Audio books in French. I've actually programmed 3 games in a new programming language (Rust), when before I was stressing about even look at a computer. I've first drafted 1.5 fiction books, and working through the 2nd drafts. I've accomplished more at work in less time.

What I'm saying here is sometimes we need to give ourselves permission to skip school and play hooky. Go out fishing, have a pint with some friends, or have a nap. Pushing yourself harder can be counter productive as I've discovered.


Yes, this all makes sense, and thank you for your sympathy rdearman. I do need to remain strict on myself if I do want to achieve all my goals, but I also need to reflect in which goals I actually do want to achieve and in which time frame- then perhaps I can adjust how much time I devote to particular activities each day.

I am the type of person though, that if I give myself permission to put my feet up (which I do often), I actually don't do much- my hours in French drop, and I get less done around the house, and stop exercising. I do need to remain regimented as I suggest, but I also need to take your words on board in terms of self-reflecting and realising what i need to be strict on- how much French per day, doing what kinds of activities and what else do I need to be doing- do I really need to do all that?

Thanks again rdearman ;)


Xenops wrote:I'm sorry you're frustrated. :cry: It's disgusting how we are killing the planet and ourselves. The only thing that keeps me going is knowing that my Savior will return and set things right.

I agree with Xmmm's advice: it might be time to just get up and move.


As you may have already read, I don't feel it's time to up and move. Yes it is indeed disgusting how far detached from nature we are to the point we are destroying ourselves- destroying the planet is destroying us.

I don't believe we follow the same beliefs (religious/spiritual etc), but I will say is I hope that saviour is indeed coming- where I think we may perhaps differ is I think it is more up to us to make that change. Still being sold bullshit by governments about climate change so we can be taxed to the max is not an answer either. I'm an environmentalist, but I do not believe in handing our power over to governments so they can get rich- we need to as individuals be that saviour and take small steps to support a world we have a vision of- our power is this economically charged world often comes in the form of purchasing power- don't support companies that are doing their best to destroy the planet to profit. Choose the companies that produce products more in line with our vision.

whatiftheblog wrote:Sounds to me like you're bored, PM. You know where I stand on this, of course. It's always a careful balancing act between comfort and challenging oneself, and swinging too far either way wouldn't be good, either.

That said,

BOLIO wrote:I appreciate your log and contributions to the board. If you started a "Going Native" thread discussing your adventures with native materials then I would read it too.


This is a really good idea, BOLIO. Maybe even one per language?, for current and future learners to be able to easily share and access the most highly recommended native resources and their overall experiences with the method. What say ye, fellow forumers?


Yes, I could be bored. I just want to get through these courses and well, it's not happening. It takes so much bloody time it's insane. At the same time I have visions of tearing through native content, yet i just want the courses to be done with. I've culled the list dramatically and yet it still seems there is too much. If I balance it out with more native content/other content other than courses, then the time to completing that list grows massively, and as a result adding another language never happens. I think this is a battle of pig-headedness- can I finally let the courses go or accept that I can only get through so many? We shall see ;)

A going native thread is an interesting idea, but it will not contain me at this stage of the game. Thanks whatiftheblog :)

whatiftheblog wrote:We'll have to agree to disagree here, PM :) There are always many possible interpretations of everything, but (mercifully) only one truth, and it is up to reasonable people to discern it. I say this as someone who spent some time as a thinktank staffer and who's been accused of collecting a paycheck from, inter alia, George Soros, the CIA, the FSB, the Assad regime, the BBC, and CNN 8-) (...she wrote, staring out into the not-very-distant distance of her one bedroom shoebox...)

None of that is at issue here, though. You're clearly very devoted to French. Don't let a rough patch throw you off track!


Thanks for your point of view :) I agree there is only one truth- that is the truth I've been searching for. I've always remained very very open to challenging myself and my own world view, and (un)fortunately I seem to arrive at ideas that are less and less in line those disseminated via mainstream media, governments, (biased) science and so on. This is why in part it has become for me a sense that we are living in a matrix- a world in which we are fed bullshit at almost every angle and one in which those who appear to be the puppetmasters are doing everyhthing to keep humanity in the dark.

A final comment on that- if our governments cared about their populations, then why on earth do they so very often go in direct contrast to the wishes of their populations? What interest would that serve if not ours? It must serve someone else's. The question is who's and why do they do it? Are they indeed puppets? I think so, the writing is on the wall.

On another note, regarding the EU. Often I have come across as an EU 'hater' of sorts. And I admit that to be true. I do not wish for people NOT to have free movement, the liberty to work in other countries, the freedom to access a foreign job market. It seems that many governments of countrie's within the EU have gone very much against the wishes of their populations and this is what has seen a rise in nationalism. I don't want hatred, racism and fascism to rise. I want countries in which leaders care for their populations and the cultures of their countries- the customs, languages, interests of their people- not a superstate in which the only interests served are those of who control the superstate. If European countries need to leave the EU to send a message then perhaps that is what's required, but it's a shame free movement suffers because of this and many other positive traits of the EU. A recent couple of interviews of France Television (FT2) has seen me really agree with a politician who does not necessarily want a nationalistic France, nor a racist one, but one in which borders are controlled by France for France, not by the EU in the interest of powerful people and corporations. I'm all for a united Europe under the right circumstances- if that can't happen, I'd much prefer to see the EU abolished.

vogeltje wrote:I'm sorry that you are having so much stress and frustration. I have too, the last weeks were horrible.

I thought that 2017 would be better than 2016 becuase 7 is a much better number than 6.

Good luck. I hope that the things improve for you.


Thank you vogeltje, I hope things improve for you too!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed Mar 29, 2017 8:16 am

Today our usual French playgroup. The French teacher at the end stated she was very impressed with my daughter's pronunciation. She said it sounded spot on. Furthermore she said I could be easily mistaken for a native French person. Nice comments, I'll take then. How true they are, who knows, but i'm sure there's a degree of truth in it, just whether it's 100% is anyone's guess. I would like to see my daughter respond more frequently in French than English, but ah well, doing quite well and doing much to reinforce her speaking.

Fry over fry
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby DaveBee » Wed Mar 29, 2017 9:10 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:The French teacher at the end stated she was very impressed with my daughter's pronunciation. She said it sounded spot on. Furthermore she said I could be easily mistaken for a native French person. Nice comments, I'll take then.
A lovely memory to keep and review. :-)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby smallwhite » Wed Mar 29, 2017 1:32 pm

Are you taking DELF B2 in May?
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:23 am

smallwhite wrote:Are you taking DELF B2 in May?


I said I would but I really haven't stuck to the study plan I came up with months ago with an aim of preparing for the exam. In some ways i'm reluctant to sit it, in other ways, I think maybe I should sit it anyway. I'm not 100% sure.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby jeffers » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:27 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Are you taking DELF B2 in May?


I said I would but I really haven't stuck to the study plan I came up with months ago with an aim of preparing for the exam. In some ways i'm reluctant to sit it, in other ways, I think maybe I should sit it anyway. I'm not 100% sure.


I think you should actually take it, fully prepared or not. I couldn't say for sure if you'd pass it, but it would be a good experience anyway, and you've been preparing for it for a long time. When was it you took your B1?
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Mar 30, 2017 12:46 pm

jeffers wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:
smallwhite wrote:Are you taking DELF B2 in May?


I said I would but I really haven't stuck to the study plan I came up with months ago with an aim of preparing for the exam. In some ways i'm reluctant to sit it, in other ways, I think maybe I should sit it anyway. I'm not 100% sure.


I think you should actually take it, fully prepared or not. I couldn't say for sure if you'd pass it, but it would be a good experience anyway, and you've been preparing for it for a long time. When was it you took your B1?


Yeah I think you're right Jeffers. I can't even remember when.... just found the certificate - March 2014! Yeah, it's definitely high time I sat the B2. It might be good timing course-wise anyway. Today I completed the last lesson of Assimil Using French - first wave only, but still I do very thorough first waves. I could drop the Vocabulaire Progressif du Français (niveau débutant) for a while, possibly continue with 2nd wave of Assimil UF (or not), but pick up an exam prep book/course or two and get busy! Yeah, I think i'll do this. Wish me luck! Perhaps it will motivate me at least for a while with a new goal (ok, old goal reinvigorated). May 18th is the written component, the oral component is not announced yet. Okay a solid month and a half to prepare starting tomorrow!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby reineke » Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:01 pm

Take it. Do Takt
TakeTakeakeat
ppprevious Aaaaaargh! Google keyboard sucks! I don't want the auto screwup feature.

Take it. Look up some test samples.You should have at least one preparatory course in your list of courses. Read through Cavesa's posts. You may need to clear a weekend for that. I don't know if you've tried dialang.
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