Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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Carmody
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Carmody » Thu May 25, 2017 4:50 pm

Congratulations to "monsieur le PM" :D :D :D :D

Peter, would you consider it possible to maybe upgrade your self-image based on that? You are the boss; but maybe you are more and better (not just on the test) than what you thought.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Arnaud » Thu May 25, 2017 5:38 pm

Toutes mes félicitations !!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby zenmonkey » Thu May 25, 2017 6:00 pm

Bravo!!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby luke » Thu May 25, 2017 9:03 pm

Congratulations! You're an inspiration to us all!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 25, 2017 10:01 pm

smallwhite wrote::P Someone has updated his profile :P

Congrats!

That's a very good score. About time people stopped giving you advice and started asking you for it instead. So in your expert opinion, which 100 Greek courses should I get? :P


:) Thank you smallwhite :)

Actually, I've recently befriended a Greek guy and he was telling me a bit about the Greek language, how mathematical and logical it is. Carefull smallwhite, you most definitely could fall for this one. ;)

To be fair, I've asked for a lot of advice and people have offered it from their experience of what works in an effort to help, and I have employed some of their strategies. In the end though, you're right smallwhite, I can take a lot of confidence from my own methods too.

rdearman wrote:Congratulations ! :D

Aren't you glad you didn't skip the test. Just out of curiousity, how many hours do you think you did to get to this B2 ?


Thank you rdearman. Very glad indeed. 3200 hours logged from 2013 and now. 2013 and 2014 I didn't count all my TV hours, and I did more over the years. It literally could be as high as 5000 hours. But much repetition in that 1800 hours) starting over numerous times between 1997 and 2013 I took the picturesque route and I still am captivated by the scenery.

Perhaps, without being negative, my intellect has lacked a little for learning languages, hence the methodical and guided processes with courses and the stretched out time. There's much to be learned in taking ONE language to an advanced level, although I'm not there yet, but I'm almost certain it increases one's efficiency substantially with subsequent languages.

Also, it appears from all the feedback with my tutors that I'm a good way beyond B2. My most experienced tutor believes I'm half way to C1. Hard to know if true, but worth considering.

iguanamon wrote:Congratulations, Msyè PM! You've done quite well, and you did it your way!


tastyonions wrote:Félicitations! Je pensais que tes efforts porteraient leurs fruits. Je ne partage pas trop ton engouement pour les cours mais tes méthodes t'ont permis d'atteindre ton but et c'est ça qui est le plus important en fin de compte.


Thank you iguanamon and tastyonions.

Indeed I've done it my way and it would be easy to be totally self righteous about doing courses all day long, but there's much validity in a well balanced approach and I still believe my techniques have been out of balance most of the time, yet I still want to continue with that approach as explained - too many courses I want to get through! Also, as we know, I most definitely have included a large chunk of reading and listening, but the proportion of courses has just been much higher than most. Whether I can fight the lust for courses, we'll see. Courses do have their place, absolutely, I can safely say that I've proven that at least somewhat, even if it's the slow route. Still, there is a hell of a lot to be gained from other strategies as well, and ultimately a mix is probably theoretically best, but we all have different tastes, i've just been a bit different than many on this forum I guess.

Carmody wrote:Congratulations to "monsieur le PM" :D :D :D :D

Peter, would you consider it possible to maybe upgrade your self-image based on that? You are the boss; but maybe you are more and better (not just on the test) than what you thought.


Hmmm, you know Carmody, I suspect that my passion for French language and culture extends to a large degree to a little land north of Belgium as well. And thank you for the congrat's as well :) In fact, this passion even extends south across the Pyrenees. Like many language learners here, most likely yourself included, multiple languages and cultures fascinate me. The fact that I've been dedicated to only one language for some time doesn't necessarily indicate that I only have eyes for France/French. Although it was my primary choice. Still, the Netherlands remains in my heart, but indeed French is the flavour of the month, sorry year, well perhaps a decade actually. Hmmm, maybe you have a point? ;)

Arnaud wrote:Toutes mes félicitations !!


zenmonkey wrote:Bravo!!


luke wrote:Congratulations! You're an inspiration to us all!


Thanks guys!

I really do appreciate all the support here, thank you indeed :)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby rlnv » Thu May 25, 2017 10:51 pm

Congratulations on the B2. That is a great accomplishment indeed. You sure got the results fast!

You path to that level seems to be unique, being study heavy versus usage heavy, and you've proved quite clearly that it is a valid and viable option. I've always respected your effort and path you've chosen, but still, I have a new respect today. I've been hitting the books a lot lately myself and hope to emulate some of the success you've had.

I've said good luck in the past, and you countered that. Understand that I've lived many years in Las Vegas and am accustomed to using the term for any and all reasons (and at any and all hours of the day or night), so I'll use it one more time. Good luck on your journey to C1 using your chosen study heavy path. But honestly, I know you don't need luck. It's a certainty.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 25, 2017 11:45 pm

rlnv wrote:Congratulations on the B2. That is a great accomplishment indeed. You sure got the results fast!

You path to that level seems to be unique, being study heavy versus usage heavy, and you've proved quite clearly that it is a valid and viable option. I've always respected your effort and path you've chosen, but still, I have a new respect today. I've been hitting the books a lot lately myself and hope to emulate some of the success you've had.

I've said good luck in the past, and you countered that. Understand that I've lived many years in Las Vegas and am accustomed to using the term for any and all reasons (and at any and all hours of the day or night), so I'll use it one more time. Good luck on your journey to C1 using your chosen study heavy path. But honestly, I know you don't need luck. It's a certainty.


Thank you Ron,

I know wishing me good luck is indeed a positive thing and I absolutely appreciate that. Thank you Ron.

For yourself and anyone else seeing my methods as a a viable option, which they are, do take into consideration that had I employed other methods not so study heavy that I might have reached my current level in half the time. Altough it may have taken double the time. I guess what I'm saying is that this is not proof of efficiency necessarily, and that's worth reflecting on. It may also prove my methods work for me, but not necessarily for everyone else. Many people would give up with my approach, just as I might with theirs. I think the take home messages are
• use whatever method(s) work for you.
• despite what people might consider, all roads do lead to Rome, even those appearing to go in the 'wrong direction',
• provided you remain on track (i.e. consistent).

Thank you Ron for your good wishes on my journey to C1. I may yet still change my approach though and hit the SC like a man on a mission. We'll see ;)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby smallwhite » Fri May 26, 2017 10:13 am

rdearman wrote:Just out of curiousity, how many hours do you think you did to get to this B2 ?

PM is now THE French superhero-x-ultraman of LLorg, and you should start re-reading all his logs from start to finish, L/Ring them at home and shadowing them in the park, if you haven't already like I have (told you I was efficient). Hours and dates are key information that should go onto flashcards and religiously SRS'd. From my green sheets of notes taken as I studied this log last night, I give you links to:

A post where PM (now THE PM) summarises his journey (now THE journey) up to Feb 2017, and

an example of hour totals that he posts every year.
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PeterMollenburg
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 26, 2017 12:51 pm

smallwhite wrote:
rdearman wrote:Just out of curiousity, how many hours do you think you did to get to this B2 ?

PM is now THE French superhero-x-ultraman of LLorg, and you should start re-reading all his logs from start to finish, L/Ring them at home and shadowing them in the park, if you haven't already like I have (told you I was efficient). Hours and dates are key information that should go onto flashcards and religiously SRS'd. From my green sheets of notes taken as I studied this log last night, I give you links to:

A post where PM (now THE PM) summarises his journey (now THE journey) up to Feb 2017, and

an example of hour totals that he posts every year.


Start reading them? You mean he hasn't started? C'mon, we all know it's actually me rdearman will be doing a talk on in Bratislava. I mean he hasn't said anything of the sort, but let's be like straight up real an' that, he know's how much I love surprises coz i've mentioned it in so many of my posts (using completely obscure unrelated words of course), so he's keeping it on the DL... well okay I pretend they are surprises, coz yes indeed I can see into the future when I've got that super power turned on (Tursdays and Thursjours).

You do realise that the shadowing in the park must occur 22.95% of the time in actual shadows, don't you? And that you must be in close proximity to a magpie who has recently swallowed 5mg of diazepam inadvertently. Then you're on your way to speaking perfect Italian and Greek a.k.a. 'Greetalian'.

Disclaimer: Results of such techniques only work if you have already completed 4000 hours plus of language study including a minimum of 21 courses. If feeling unwell, see your dictator... sorry doctor. All of this might not be true and is most likely lies, but true lies, and mostly partly truth if you want it to be.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby blaurebell » Fri May 26, 2017 4:37 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:Altough it may have taken double the time. I guess what I'm saying is that this is not proof of efficiency necessarily, and that's worth reflecting on. It may also prove my methods work for me, but not necessarily for everyone else. Many people would give up with my approach, just as I might with theirs.


I don't really think it has taken you "double the time", since your production scores would be hard / impossible to reach with any other approach! I have gone through a 5 month immersion course up to B2 with Spanish and not a single person out of my course who started there from scratch would have reached such production scores although we were speaking every day for 3h - the problem is mainly reinforcement of mistakes by speaking beyond your level. Yeah, we would have passed, but only just about. The price to pay for speaking fluently within 5 months in about 350 classroom hours + immersion is fossilised mistakes. The fossilised mistakes then make the jump from B2 to C1+ unnecessarily hard because of all the subsequent repair work. I'm now facing progressive grammar books and FSI to get rid of all the leftover debris. I fear I might have to do FSI twice actually ...! There are no shortcuts in language learning!

And if you go the input heavy route: After 8000 pages and roughly 300h of audio with French, +70h of courses I'm already at 800h and my production is still super shaky. What comes out of my mouth is more or less correct, but it feels as if I'm trying to pull teeth out of my mouth instead of sentences. My whole plan for French is 20,000 pages read, 1000h of audio, progressive grammar books + FSI and finally output challenge. I'll end up with 2500h minimum for C1 production and I'll hopefully skip B2 entirely that way. And even after all of that I somehow doubt that I will reach your production results without more focus on grammar / courses though! And of course the only way to get to C2 is to really have the grammar down perfectly and for this you have to put in the work at some point. Basically you're doing the work for the C1 to C2 jump up front, which will make it more of a continuous progression than a jump for you!

So, maybe there are more "efficient" ways to get to B2 with much lower production scores, but you're definitely on the most efficient and effective route to C2! I wish I had your patience with courses, it would make the road a lot less bumpy!

PeterMollenburg wrote:Disclaimer: Results of such techniques only work if you have already completed 4000 hours plus of language study including a minimum of 21 courses. If feeling unwell, see your dictator... sorry doctor.


I had a particularly dictatorial English teacher in high school who made us drill grammar until we ran out of ink, literally! I call it the grammar gulag approach to language learning :D I'd like to be more of a fan, since it was super effective, but it frankly makes me lose my will to live :lol:
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