Re: PM’s French Re-entry into the Matrix - Phase 1: 500 Hours Extensive Reading

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whatiftheblog
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby whatiftheblog » Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:59 am

We'll have to agree to disagree here, PM :) There are always many possible interpretations of everything, but (mercifully) only one truth, and it is up to reasonable people to discern it. I say this as someone who spent some time as a thinktank staffer and who's been accused of collecting a paycheck from, inter alia, George Soros, the CIA, the FSB, the Assad regime, the BBC, and CNN 8-) (...she wrote, staring out into the not-very-distant distance of her one bedroom shoebox...)

None of that is at issue here, though. You're clearly very devoted to French. Don't let a rough patch throw you off track!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Jar-Ptitsa » Sat Mar 25, 2017 1:47 am

I'm sorry that you are having so much stress and frustration. I have too, the last weeks were horrible.

I thought that 2017 would be better than 2016 becuase 7 is a much better number than 6.

Good luck. I hope that the things improve for you.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sat Mar 25, 2017 9:12 am

jeffers wrote:It was interesting to have a look over the last 6-7 pages of this thread after a long absence. I think you're doing the right thing by paring your course list back a bit, but in general it's nice to see that you're maintaining your goals and focus. "Plus ça change..."


Thank you kindly Jeffers. It's great to see you around these parts again! I hope you keep up your recent course study list too :)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Mar 26, 2017 12:06 pm

Cavesa wrote:Hi Peter,

I will stick to French, as most things would be better talked about outside this forum and with a few beers. I think we'd have a lot of points to agree on and much much more to disagree on, but it is less fun without the beer and really balancing on the edge of the forum rules (at least the way I'd talk about it, I am not judging you as I am not a mod and this is your log) :-)

It is totally ok life gets in the way, you can still progress. I could have reached my current goals several years ago, as was the original plan, but you know life. Don't give up. And after all, self-improvement is a good tool for facing our world, no matter what do we believe are its more painful problems of the society and what pressures are being applied on each of us. Learning another language is a great therapy. It can tie us to the real world and people, the detachment from which you are criticising, it is a skill giving us more potential to change jobs and therefore it gives us more freedom, it is a much more active kind of fun than playing on a tablet, it is a way to fight any intelligence lowering factors (ranging from marketing to neurodegenerative diseases), and so on. And it is a way to succeed at something independently, which is a great moral boost. All that makes it well worth going on!

One thing I found very helpful is the Course Completion Challenge. Whether you choose to get through three or ten courses in the end (I definitely don't believe your current plan is the final version :-D ), it is good to stick to one or two for a time and get through them. I guess that in May 2018, you will be much readier for the SC having completed two courses than having got through the first half of five, dear king PM.

For escapes from reality, no matter the way each of us sees it and what does each of us find annoying, try French fiction. You can start before the SC after all. Perhaps you will find more energy and mood for your course mission, if you start supplementing it with more fun. I think you might enjoy not only great sci-fi and anti-utopias, but with a lot of non-fiction (but that is much less of an escape, true). I think we've chosen one of the best languages possible for reading various points of view concerning absolutely anything!

Btw, I am now feeling a similar worry concerning courses and would instinctively love to hoard a dozen B2 and C1 Spanish courses. (Un)Fortunately, there are not that many on the market. So, I am going for fewer and trying to stick to my own advice mentioned above. Two at a time are plenty. My "deadline" for coursework is not SC, it is the point at which I'll have to start drilling DELE kinds of assignements.


Thanks Cavesa for your kind support. There's very little risk of me giving up language learning, in particular, French learning. There's only one way to tackle it - through it! I just continue day after day. I hit a real low with too much on my plate and allowing it to all fall apart. I'm now putting it back together bit by bit. I would have to decline the beer tho- not my thing at all. You're really doing well to even see me drink a glass of wine, as alcohol for the most part just does not interest me. Mind you it is a good ice breaker and would allow for guard's being dropped and some interesting conversation indeed, that, I really would enjoy.

I'm back in the course completion challenge with 2 courses only ;)

Fiction for me for the most part appears to be orchestrated distraction for the masses, as alcohol appears to be orchestrated destruction - both serve purposes for the masters. I often wonder why people (edit: me included) blindly follow practices that essentially are destructive, but I believe I know the answers anyway. Interesting to contemplate nonetheless. Still I do enjoy the feeling alcohol brings when not overdone in terms of weakening our overly protective shells, and I do own a number of French fiction books- their time will come, and we could see me becoming an alcoholic as I deal with the shock of my new found bibliophilic character :)

You will not be surprised to learn that I possess a very large amount of course material in Spanish myself. Hold out Cavesa, purchase only what you need, it's not worth it!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Cavesa » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:02 pm

"Going for a beer" doesn't mean any obligation to trully order and drink a beer for anyone :-), the phrase itself, at least in Czech, simply sounds better than "Let's go and do some socialization over whatever kind of refreshment anyone likes". It is normal, that some people don't drink alcohol (and there is always lemonade, water, cola, and other options), or they just don't like beer (yes, there are even czechs, who don't like it). (or the particular pub serves a bad kind of beer, in which case I'll stay with water :-D )

I drink moderately, because I simply like the taste of a good beer, wine, and sometimes even coctails, but I don't seek out the opportunities too much. And the first phase of getting drunk trully is a wonderful icebreaker towards interesting discussions (the later phases are not). Alcoholic beverages are much older than any kind of system or a government that has anything to do with ours. Ancient Babylon-first beer. Ancient Greece-wine (or perhaps even earlier, as the wine's originslie somewhere in the middle east, around Israel, ). Just like with everything, "fire (alcohol) is a good servant but a bad lord" applies here too.

No worries, I don't have the money to overload my library even further with courses. But thanks for the warning! :-)
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Mar 26, 2017 2:37 pm

Cavesa wrote:"Going for a beer" doesn't mean any obligation to trully order and drink a beer for anyone :-), the phrase itself, at least in Czech, simply sounds better than "Let's go and do some socialization over whatever kind of refreshment anyone likes". It is normal, that some people don't drink alcohol (and there is always lemonade, water, cola, and other options), or they just don't like beer (yes, there are even czechs, who don't like it). (or the particular pub serves a bad kind of beer, in which case I'll stay with water :-D )

I drink moderately, because I simply like the taste of a good beer, wine, and sometimes even coctails, but I don't seek out the opportunities too much. And the first phase of getting drunk trully is a wonderful icebreaker towards interesting discussions (the later phases are not). Alcoholic beverages are much older than any kind of system or a government that has anything to do with ours. Ancient Babylon-first beer. Ancient Greece-wine (or perhaps even earlier, as the wine's originslie somewhere in the middle east, around Israel, ). Just like with everything, "fire (alcohol) is a good servant but a bad lord" applies here too.

No worries, I don't have the money to overload my library even further with courses. But thanks for the warning! :-)


Then some time we shall 'go for a beer' then ;)

I'm Australian and I very much dislike beer :) (that's not 'normal'). Nor do I drink coffee or tea- why should I just because almost everyone else does.

Imo controlling goverments have been around for thousands of years, but indeed alcohol perhaps longer. It's a good outlet though for those who struggle with the system/daily grind/shit/life/control/matrix/work/politics/problems/whatever - drink and be merry, get a load off your chest and return to the whatever it is.

Only one way to solve anything- buy more courses!
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby Expugnator » Sun Mar 26, 2017 10:46 pm

Je parie que le vin a été inventé en Géorgie ! J'ai lu plusieurs références sur ce sujet, les Géorgiens mêmes s'attribuent la création du vin. De toute façon, on dit qu'il y a de très bons vins là-bas.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:43 pm

DaveBee wrote:I just listened to a podcast that might interest you. It was about the La Paix de Fexhe which appears to have been a significant event for political freedoms in Liège/Belgium.


Interesting, tnx DaveBee, I read the wikipedia article and listened to the excerpt of that particular podcast, but can't seem to listen to the actual entire podcast from that day.
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby DaveBee » Mon Mar 27, 2017 9:56 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote:
DaveBee wrote:I just listened to a podcast that might interest you. It was about the La Paix de Fexhe which appears to have been a significant event for political freedoms in Liège/Belgium.


Interesting, tnx DaveBee, I read the wikipedia article and listened to the excerpt of that particular podcast, but can't seem to listen to the actual entire podcast from that day.
there seems to be two players embedded on that page. One at the top of the article, and another at the bottom. I think you want the one at the bottom.

EDIT
From within iTunes, if I right-click "get info" I can see a file url location, pasted below.

http://rtbf-pod.l3.freecaster.net/pod/r ... V3bOgt.mp3
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Re: PM's French Courses Mission

Postby PeterMollenburg » Mon Mar 27, 2017 10:33 pm

Carmody wrote:
French
Frustrated, confused, floundering, not advancing.
Peter it is always nice to read what you write. I have learned so much from you and continue to learn.

Very often people write on the Forum of how many languages they are learning, and by implication how very easy it is for them to just absorb/learn so many languages with total and natural osmosis like ease.

You on the other hand talk of the struggles and frustrations of the learning process. So many thanks to you for sharing so very honestly what your journey is really like.

It is said by rdearman also that language learning "is hard work." Not many confess to that.


Thank you Carmody. Indeed rdearman is correct. It is hard work. For the most part it is enjoyable hard work, but I think general monolingual English speaking populations out there really seem to undervalue just how much work is invloved learning a foreign language to an advanced level. Of course how can they understand without experience. I was indeed the same. The attitudes of just attending evening classes and absorbing languages via osmosis are unfortunately far too common. It takes a great deal of time and effort- if you want to attain advanced fluency and not sound like the natives would prefer to revert to English.

Carmody wrote:Now then, I am only A2 in my French learning and much of the progress is due to you telling me the importance of switching from one media or learning tool to another. That was helpful and I will not begin to tell you anything when it comes to language learning. However I have found that my learning curve can become stalled if I keep pushing, pushing, pushing too hard.


Just because I am further along the path in learning French does not mean you can offer me no decent advice or insights. Nor am I necessarily more qualified to offer you advice just because I know more French. My methods could be flawed, my logic not applicable to you or I could be just plain wrong. I would like to offer you a piece of advice though-

Be careful with adding new languages to your learning régime when you are not so advanced in the first foreign language. Time is perhaps your biggest asset, and you must use it wisely if you want to progress efficiently in language learning. That's mainly what I wanted to say, but I'd like to offer a few insights that are currently coming to mind as food for thought, something to refelct on associated with the path of language learning.

• For some, being efficient means learning multiple languages at once at similar low levels, accepting widespread very slow progress across all languages. One generally ought to be fully understanding of how much effort and time it will take to advance, or the likelihood of giving up could become all too likely. If you know what you're in for and accept this, you're more likely to succeed. Expugnator is a good example of this, although I'm not sure whether he already had advanced levels of some languages prior to taking on multiple languages at similar levels. Apologies if I'm incorrec there.

• Some people study one language to an advanced level and only once that level is obtained do they then permit themselves to spread themselves more thinly across several languages as they have equipped themselves with the knowlege and experience of what it takes to get one language to such a level (I think this is me currently, but I'm not convinced yet).

• Some have no idea what they're doing and try to advance multiple languages to advanced levels at once and really lack insight into what it actually takens (used to be me).

• Some people study in blocks. As an example they may study French to B2, drop it, then study Mandarin to B1, followed by Portuguese to C1, then they come back to French and attempt to progress further. Sounds ok, not sure if it yields awesome results or crap ones.

• It has often been said on this forum that if you bring a language up to the "C-levels" on the CEFRL then, you will have a hard time forgetting those languages. Whereas, taking languages to the A and B levels and dropping them, you really will find it seems that you will lose a lot of what you learned and have not used your time efficiently (I did this many a time).

• Some people study one or two languages seriously while dabbling in others. Perhaps 2 hours a day on your main language and another hour doing whatever you like. Quite a good method if you can't stick to just one language perhaps, but really do need/want to advanced seriously in at least one for the moment.

• Some need to maintain strict study régimes (me). Others don't. For whatever reason.

• Methods matter- what suits you at what stage of learning. I do not advise using courses for extended periods of time as the bulk of your learning. I do recommend it being the bulk of your learning early on, but then how much time they take up out of your learning methods should decrease more and more. Some people don't even use them at all and they do fine without them.

• I am not the "knowlege King" - this is only some of the things i've learned so far in my journey. They do not apply necessarily to you, and to provide advice this short of a distance into my language learning could be premature. This still a lot I have to learn! I would be more likely to take on board the advice of those who have learned multiple languages to advanced levels such as Professor Arguelles, Iguanamon, Cavesa, Tarvos, Serpent, and really anyone who can take multiple langauges to C1 and above- what did they do to get there, is that something you want to do, how can you apply it to your situation.

I say all this as I know I have potentially wasted a lot of time in the past dabbling (when I thought I was taking things seriously) and spreading myself too thin. I don't like to see others make similar mistakes, and I wonder sometimes with newer forum members, or even members who have been learning one language for perhaps a couple of years, whether they tend to introduce other languages a little too soon. Then again, I could just be overly fearful myself.

Iguanamon has said to me and others a few times that he is yet to see a new forum member be able to take on multiple languages at low levels and succeed in getting them to an advanced level without having already taken one foreign language to an advanced level first. If I'm a little off with his words, then he has at least hardly seen anyone do this at all (ie extremely rare). I hope that makes sense. Iguanamon correct me if I'm wrong. The take home message is that there is a lot of experience and value to be gained from becoming advanced in one foreign language first.

Carmody wrote:I do daily taichi as well as French and found that if I backed off trying so hard and expecting so much that then my taichi actually improved. In effect I actually stopped going to class and started studying the hundred pages of class notes I took and then worked at learning from that. A crowded classroom is sometimes a difficult place to do the form fully. So for now my taichi is doing better than when going to class.

As I said, you are more advanced than I am and I would never give you advice, but I found that in my journey that by backing off, lightening up, and making a course correction or change that then things could go better for me.


I agree to an extent. Yes I agree taking a step back, reflecting, and sometimes a short break, all help. But one must not lose sight of the goal. If you want to get to the Olympics, you've still got to train- hard. Step back, reflect, pause all we like, but we've also go to get on with the job.

Carmody wrote:And of course thanks for your advice in the past and the sharing of your journey.

And very best wishes.....
;)


Thank you kindly Carmody. I apologise if I'm coming across haughty/arrogant or something similar. I only have good intentions here. You wanted to provide some kind advice and I end up ranting on to you for eons. Oops :?
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